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REGULAR MEETING - ZONING BOARD OF APPEALS Proceedings had and Testimony taken in the matter of the ZONING BOARD OF APPEALS, at City of Novi, 45175 West Ten Mile Road, Novi, Michigan, on Tuesday, October 9, 2012 BOARD MEMBERS ALSO PRESENT: REPORTED BY: Jennifer L. Wall, Certified Shorthand Reporter 1 Novi, Michigan. 2 Tuesday, October 9, 2012 3 7:00 p.m. 4 ** ** ** 5 CHAIRMAN IBE: Good evening. 6 Welcome to the October 9, 2012 Zoning Board 7 of Appeals meeting for the City of Novi. 8 Can we please rise for the 9 Pledge of Allegiance. 10 (Pledge of Allegiance recited.) 11 CHAIRMAN IBE: Can we please have 12 the roll call. 13 MS. PAWLOWSKI: Member Gedeon? 14 MR. GEDEON: (No audible response.) 15 MS. PAWLOWSKI: Member Gerblick? 16 MR. GERBLICK: Here. 17 MS. PAWLOWSKI: Member Ghannam? 18 MR. GHANNAM: Here. 19 MS. PAWLOWSKI: Chairman Ibe? 20 CHAIRMAN IBE: Present. 21 MS. PAWLOWSKI: Member Krieger? 22 MS. KRIEGER: Here. 23 MS. PAWLOWSKI: Member Sanghvi, is 24 absent, excused. 25 Member Skelcy?
4 1 MS. SKELCY: (No audible response.) 2 MS. PAWLOWSKI: Member Ferrell? 3 MR. FERRELL: Here. 4 CHAIRMAN IBE: Thank you very much. 5 Before we begin, I just want to let those in 6 the audience know that we do have two members 7 that are absent today, so if any reason 8 anyone would like to have a full board 9 present, they can always request to have the 10 case tabled. 11 However, any decision that is 12 made today is final. 13 The agenda for today's meeting 14 can be found in the back of the room, for 15 those who need to follow the agenda. 16 When you are called to come 17 forward, please make sure that you when you 18 come to the podium, you state your name, as 19 well as spell it for our court reporter, the 20 record keeper, and you are allowed to five 21 minutes to make a presentation, then may be 22 allotted extra time at the discretion of the 23 Chair. 24 Let's move forward. Do we 25 have any modifications as to the agenda
5 1 today? 2 MS. PAWLOWSKI: No. 3 CHAIRMAN IBE: None. 4 MR. GHANNAM: I move to approve. 5 MR. GERBLICK: Second. 6 MS. PAWLOWSKI: A motion has been 7 made and seconded, all of those in favor say 8 aye. 9 THE BOARD: Aye. 10 CHAIRMAN IBE: All those opposed? 11 (No audible responses.) 12 CHAIRMAN IBE: The ayes carry. 13 (Whereupon Member Gedeon entered the hearing 14 room.) 15 CHAIRMAN IBE: And the minutes for 16 September 11th, 2012 meeting. Do we have any 17 modifications or any reason to change it? 18 (No audible responses.) 19 CHAIRMAN IBE: Seeing none, I will 20 entertain a motion, please. 21 MS. KRIEGER: So moved to approve 22 the minutes. 23 MR. GERBLICK: Second. 24 CHAIRMAN IBE: Seeing a motion has 25 been made and seconded, all those in favor
6 1 say aye. 2 THE BOARD: Aye. 3 CHAIRMAN IBE: Those against? 4 (No audible responses.) 5 CHAIRMAN IBE: Seeing none, the 6 minutes for September 11th, 2012 is hereby 7 approved and adopted. 8 Is there anyone in the 9 audience who would like to make a public 10 remark at this time? Now public remarks are 11 limited to just public remarks and not to any 12 cases that are before the Board. 13 (No audible responses.) 14 CHAIRMAN IBE: Seeing none, we will 15 close the public remarks section and move to 16 our first case for today. 17 The first case is Case No. 18 PZ12-043, 22700 Heslip Drive, Bellanger, 19 Inc.. Can the applicant please come to the 20 podium. 21 It appears we don't have the 22 applicant here. Do you suggest we pass on 23 this or do we move onto -- 24 MS. SAARELA: You can pass on it 25 for now, see if the applicant shows up.
7 1 CHAIRMAN IBE: Very well. We will 2 go onto the second case scheduled for today. 3 That is Case No. PZ-12-043, 44500 Grand 4 River. 5 Is the applicant here? Please 6 come to the podium. And please state your 7 full name, spell your last name for the 8 record. And if you're not an attorney, raise 9 your hand so you can be sworn in. Thank you. 10 (Whereupon Member Skelcy entered the hearing 11 room.) 12 MS. KRIEGER: Please state and 13 spell your name for the reporter. 14 MR. GILTNER: David Giltner, 15 G-i-l-t-n-e-r. 16 MS. KRIEGER: Thank you. In Case 17 No. PZ-12-044, for 44500 Grand River Avenue, 18 do you swear to tell the truth in this case? 19 MR. GILTNER: I do. I'm also the 20 next on the list, too, for 44700. 21 I'm looking at a large parcel 22 of real estate, a piece of property in Novi, 23 205,000 feet of a three-building campus 24 previously used for manufacturing, and I can 25 use all the market help I can get.
8 1 CHAIRMAN IBE: Is that it? 2 MR. GILTNER: Yes. 3 CHAIRMAN IBE: Very well. Madam 4 Secretary, would you please read any 5 correspondence. 6 MS. KRIEGER: In Case No. 7 PZ-12-044, for 44500 Grand River Avenue, 33 8 were mailed, zero returns, zero responses. 9 CHAIRMAN IBE: Thank you. Is there 10 anyone in the audience who would like to make 11 a comment or remark regarding this particular 12 case before the board? 13 (No audible responses.) 14 CHAIRMAN IBE: Seeing none, I will 15 turn to the city to get any opinion regarding 16 this particular case? 17 MR. BOULARD: Nothing to add, 18 Mr. Chairman, other than that the signs are 19 listed in the description as wing signs, 20 meaning they would be V shaped and have two 21 faces. The way that the Novi ordinance is 22 written, if the wider end of those two faces 23 is more than 24 inches apart, they would be 24 considered -- each face would be considered 25 individually.
9 1 I confirmed with 2 Mr. Alexander, I believe, in the petitioner's 3 office, that the wing signs will not be wider 4 than 24 inches at the rear, so at the widest 5 point, so they will count as a single area. 6 I'd be happy to answer any 7 questions. 8 CHAIRMAN IBE: Very well. Thank 9 you very much. City attorney? 10 MS. SAARELA: We have nothing to 11 add. 12 CHAIRMAN IBE: Thank you very much. 13 I will now open this up for 14 discussion for the board. Member Skelcy? 15 MS. SKELCY: So I understand, you 16 want five signs? 17 MR. GILTNER: I don't need five 18 signs. No. I mean, my point and reason for 19 being here is to have a huge freeway sign. 20 That's what I'm looking to get. 21 MS. SKELCY: So you're looking for 22 what is marked on number five on this? 23 MR. GILTNER: I don't have your 24 numbers there, but if you say so. 25 MS. SKELCY: Do you have other
10 1 signs on the property currently? 2 MR. GILTNER: I do. I think I have 3 got -- it's a three building campus. I have 4 got three signs on the entire parcel right 5 now. 6 I don't need anymore. I have 7 got -- I think two signs on Grand River and 8 one in front of the third building. All I 9 really need is a large freeway sign. 10 MS. SKELCY: Thank you. 11 CHAIRMAN IBE: Yes? 12 MR. BOULARD: The sign that's 13 allowed by right, there is two parcels. The 14 drawing that was presented with the two cases 15 shows both properties. It shows a total of 16 five signs, including I believe the one that 17 you mentioned along the freeway. 18 But by right, the signs are -- 19 the single signs allowed by right for each 20 property is only 16 square feet. 21 If I understand correctly, the 22 existing signs that you got along Grand River 23 and the other signs on the campus exceed 24 that, and so between the two properties you 25 do need variances for five signs.
11 1 MR. GILTNER: That's why I am here. 2 Again, another -- the smaller sign that you 3 just described, the wing sign, I'm not 4 interested in getting another small sign on 5 the property. I'd like to keep what I have 6 and put a large sign on the freeway, that's 7 why I'm here. 8 MR. BOULARD: So there are the five 9 signs, all five of them are oversized. 10 MS. SKELCY: So was there a 11 variance granted for the others that are 12 already there? 13 MR. BOULARD: No, not at this 14 point. I believe what went up recently is a 15 mock sign. 16 MR. GHANNAM: I have got another 17 question, for this particular parcel, for 18 44500 Grand River, you've got one 24 square 19 foot and one 48 square foot. 20 Is that -- those were the two 21 signs, the mock signs that are up there 22 currently, correct? 23 MR. BOULARD: I can't confirm that. 24 I have not been out to verify the mock signs. 25 MR. GHANNAM: On this particular
12 1 parcel for this case, those two signs will be 2 facing Grand River, I presume, correct? The 3 ones that you are asking for? 4 MR. GILTNER: Yes. 5 MR. GHANNAM: Because you said you 6 want one for the freeway, but this particular 7 parcel in this case is the one for Grand 8 River. 9 MR. GILTNER: Does the next item on 10 your list request a sign facing the freeway? 11 MR. GHANNAM: Well, we haven't 12 gotten there, but I believe it's for the same 13 thing, with the exception it says two 24 14 square foot signs and one 48 square foot 15 sign. 16 So this one is requesting one 17 24 -- 18 MR. GILTNER: I think that's 19 what's -- they're already -- I guess the 20 request, I'm asking to keep what's there. 21 MR. GHANNAM: What's the size -- 22 well, maybe we haven't -- 23 MR. GILTNER: I'm going to assume 24 the next case that's the freeway sign, that's 25 the reason I am here.
13 1 MS. SKELCY: Clarification, when I 2 was looking at this, Case No. 12-045, that is 3 three signs, one is the freeway sign, it 4 appears, and then Case No. 12-044, just 5 requests the same size, but only one of each. 6 As opposed to two 24, which is in Case No. 7 045. 8 MR. GILTNER: Do you have a 9 question? 10 MS. SKELCY: I am making a 11 clarification. Also I can't support having 12 five signs. 13 MR. GILTNER: I don't need five 14 signs. 15 MS. SKELCY: So what are you asking 16 for today exactly, sir? 17 MR. GILTNER: A freeway sign. 18 MS. SKELCY: That's it? 19 MR. GILTNER: Again, and keeping 20 the signs I already have. 21 MS. SKELCY: You can't keep those 22 signs because they violate an ordinance. 23 MR. GILTNER: There is three -- 24 apparently there is two parcels, so can I not 25 have a Grand River sign on each of the other
14 1 two parcels and have a freeway sign? 2 MS. SKELCY: The issue is with the 3 size. Can you explain this for us, please. 4 MR. BOULARD: Yeah. Each parcel is 5 allowed a sign of 16 feet, the maximum 10 6 feet height, one per parcel. 7 MR. GILTNER: Okay. 8 MR. BOULARD: As I understand, the 9 two -- the signs that you have up currently 10 are larger than that. So in order to remain, 11 they would need to have a variance. 12 MR. GILTNER: Then I'm requesting a 13 variance. 14 MR. BOULARD: You're requesting 15 variances for all five signs across the two 16 parcels? 17 MR. GILTNER: Okay. 18 MS. SKELCY: Okay. I can't support 19 a request for that many signs on this 20 property especially given the size. I could 21 agree to one large sign for the freeway, but 22 the others I believe should be the regular 23 size, which is 16 square feet. 24 And I don't think you need two 25 on Grand River, quite frankly. I think you
15 1 only need one on the 44500 and 44550 2 property, I mean it's just duplicating what 3 you have already have. 4 MR. GILTNER: Right. I agree. 5 CHAIRMAN IBE: Member Gedeon? 6 MR. GEDEON: Never mind. My point 7 was made earlier by the other members. 8 CHAIRMAN IBE: Yes, Member Krieger? 9 MS. KRIEGER: I drove by the site 10 today, I found six signs. I found on 11 Grand River the two signs, one being a 12 V-shape sign, and then in the parcel itself, 13 there is one where No. 1 is listed, there is 14 one on the ground where No. 2 is listed, and 15 then facing the freeway on No. 2 building, 16 there is one there, and then also on the 17 44700 there was a sign. 18 And then when I drove down the 19 expressway, I could hardly see that sign 20 anyway. I could only see the parcel and that 21 was it. 22 MR. GILTNER: There is no sign on 23 the freeway right now. 24 MS. KRIEGER: On the buildings. I 25 counted six signs today.
16 1 MR. GILTNER: I think one of the 2 signs you saw from the freeway was a sign on 3 a different property. 4 MS. KRIEGER: Anyway, I agree with 5 the previous speaker, that one sign on 6 Grand River V-shaped takes care of anybody 7 that had any interest in one parcel and one 8 sign. And then the other ones there, that 9 will get to it when we get to that case. 10 Thank you. 11 CHAIRMAN IBE: Thank you, Member 12 Krieger. 13 MR. GILTNER: So the asking price 14 for the parcel is $7,800,000. I guess what 15 I'm requesting is to keep a large sign on 16 Grand River and not order still yet another 17 sign, which would be very small. 18 We will be glad to take one of 19 the signs off Grand River, but I'd like to 20 keep the larger one at Grand River. 21 MR. GHANNAM: That's the 48 square 22 foot one? 23 MR. GILTNER: Yes. 24 MR. GHANNAM: Just so I'm clear, we 25 got a lot of stuff going on. You want one on
17 1 Grand River and one on the freeway? 2 MR. GILTNER: That would be fine. 3 MR. GHANNAM: I know we haven't 4 gotten to the freeway parcel yet, but -- 5 MR. GILTNER: Just not small ones. 6 It's a very large parcel, you know, 7 Grand River frontage, I-96 frontage, I'd like 8 to have the signs that are visible. 9 MR. GHANNAM: I understand that. 10 And actually, I could agree to that, or 11 support one sign on Grand River, but this 12 particular case, again, we will get to the 13 freeway sign when we get to it, but I 14 understand this is a very large parcel in 15 this kind of unique area. 16 CHAIRMAN IBE: So if I understand, 17 are we -- is the applicant agreeing to just 18 one sign at Grand River for this particular 19 case before us right now, is that my 20 understanding? 21 MR. GHANNAM: I believe so. That's 22 what I would be willing to support. 23 MR. GILTNER: That would be one. 24 CHAIRMAN IBE: Just one? 25 MR. GILTNER: As long as it's a
18 1 larger sign, yes. 2 CHAIRMAN IBE: We can do -- 3 MS. SAARELA: You can give -- grant 4 whatever variance that you believe is 5 appropriate as long as it's what he is 6 requesting or lesser. 7 CHAIRMAN IBE: Very well. We have 8 anything further? 9 MS. SKELCY: How long would you 10 want this sign up for? 11 MR. GILTNER: A year listing. 12 CHAIRMAN IBE: So what are the 13 prospects that this property will be sold by 14 then within a year? I mean, do you have a -- 15 MR. GILTNER: Fifty percent odds. 16 CHAIRMAN IBE: Fifty percent. Very 17 well. 18 Do we have any further 19 conversation or is anyone willing to 20 motion -- 21 MR. GHANNAM: I will make a motion. 22 I will make a motion in Item 23 No. 2, Case No. PZ-12-044, that we approve 24 the applicant's request for one 48 square 25 foot sign on the premises for a period of one
19 1 year, or when the property is sold, whichever 2 is less. 3 The request is based on 4 circumstances or features that are 5 exceptional and unique to the property and 6 don't result in the conditions that exist in 7 the area. 8 The failure to grant relief 9 will unreasonably prevent or limit the use of 10 the property. The grant of relief will 11 result in the use of the structure that is 12 incompatible or unreasonably interferes with 13 adjacent properties, and will result in 14 substantial justice to the applicant. 15 MS. SKELCY: Second. 16 CHAIRMAN IBE: Seeing a motion has 17 been made and seconded -- Member Gedeon? 18 MR. GEDEON: Do we need to specify 19 the placement of the sign? 20 MR. GHANNAM: I don't believe so. 21 I don't generally like to make that part of 22 the motion because it's such a large and long 23 parcel. 24 Would you like me to -- 25 because we are not approving the second sign
20 1 that's requested, would you like -- 2 MS. SAARELA: We need to do a 3 second motion denying that one. 4 MR. GHANNAM: I will leave that 5 motion as is. 6 CHAIRMAN IBE: Very well. Seeing 7 that a motion has been made and seconded, 8 does anybody have any further conversation? 9 Madam Secretary, please call 10 the roll. 11 MS. PAWLOWSKI: Member Gedeon? 12 MR. GEDEON: Yes. 13 MS. PAWLOWSKI: Member Gerblick? 14 MR. GERBLICK: Yes. 15 MS. PAWLOWSKI: Member Ghannam? 16 MR. GHANNAM: Yes. 17 MS. PAWLOWSKI: Chairman Ibe? 18 CHAIRMAN IBE: Yes. 19 MS. PAWLOWSKI: Member Krieger? 20 MS. KRIEGER: Yes. 21 MS. PAWLOWSKI: Member Skelcy? 22 MS. SKELCY: Yes. 23 MS. PAWLOWSKI: Member Ferrell? 24 MR. FERRELL: Yes. 25 MS. PAWLOWSKI: Motion passes seven
21 1 to zero. 2 CHAIRMAN IBE: Thank you. 3 MR. GHANNAM: Then I will make the 4 second motion in Case PZ-12-044, to deny the 5 request for the additional 24 square foot 6 sign. 7 Because the request is not 8 based on circumstances or features that are 9 exceptional or unique to the property for 10 that particular sign. 11 The failure to grant relief 12 will not unreasonably prevent the limited use 13 of that property and the grant of relief will 14 result in a use of the structure that is 15 incompatible and unreasonably interferes with 16 the adjacent property. 17 MS. SKELCY: Second. 18 CHAIRMAN IBE: Seeing a motion has 19 been made and seconded, any need for further 20 conversation? 21 Seeing none, Madam Secretary, 22 please call the roll. 23 MS. PAWLOWSKI: Member Gedeon? 24 MR. GEDEON: Yes. 25 MS. PAWLOWSKI: Member Gerblick?
22 1 MR. GERBLICK: Yes. 2 MS. PAWLOWSKI: Member Ghannam? 3 MR. GHANNAM: Yes. 4 MS. PAWLOWSKI: Chairman Ibe? 5 CHAIRMAN IBE: Yes. 6 MS. PAWLOWSKI: Member Krieger? 7 MS. KRIEGER: Yes. 8 MS. PAWLOWSKI: Member Skelcy? 9 MS. SKELCY: Yes. 10 MS. PAWLOWSKI: Member Ferrell? 11 MR. FERRELL: Yes. 12 MS. PAWLOWSKI: Motion passes seven 13 to zero. 14 CHAIRMAN IBE: Thank you, sir. 15 Having our third case for 16 today, Case No. PZ-12-045, 44700 Grand River. 17 I believe it is the same 18 applicant. Can you please state your again 19 for the record. 20 MR. GILTNER: David Giltner, 21 G-i-l-t-n-e-r. 22 MS. KRIEGER: In Case No. 23 PZ-12-045, for 44700 Grand River, do you 24 swear to tell the truth in this case? 25 MR. GILTNER: I do.
23 1 CHAIRMAN IBE: Go ahead, sir. 2 MR. GILTNER: Again, same parcel, 3 at this juncture, I am looking for a very 4 large freeway sign to advertise three 5 buildings totaling 205,000 square feet of 6 manufacturing crane space. 7 CHAIRMAN IBE: Thank you very much. 8 Anyone in the audience who 9 would like to make a comment regarding this 10 particular case before the Board? 11 (No audible responses.) 12 CHAIRMAN IBE: Seeing none, I will 13 ask Madam Secretary to please read into the 14 record any correspondence. 15 MS. KRIEGER: In Case No. PZ-12-045 16 for 44700 Grand River, there were 21 mailed, 17 zero return, zero responses. 18 CHAIRMAN IBE: Thank you very much, 19 Madam Secretary. 20 I will now turn to the city 21 for any comments. 22 MR. BOULARD: Nothing to add. 23 MS. SAARELA: Nothing to add. 24 CHAIRMAN IBE: Thank you. I will 25 now open up this to the Board for
24 1 conversation. Yes, Member Ghannam? 2 MR. GHANNAM: Just as I stated in 3 the other case, I have no problem with 48 4 square foot. 5 In this particular property, 6 you intend to put the 48 square foot on the 7 actual freeway side of the building, correct? 8 MR. GILTNER: Correct. 9 MR. GHANNAM: I understand that. 10 And because it's so large in terms of a 11 complex, I have no problem with that. 12 But with the other ones, I 13 assume you're not interested in the other 24 14 square foot? You want freeway -- 15 MR. GILTNER: The ones I care about 16 are the large sign on Grand River and a large 17 sign on the freeway. 18 MR. GHANNAM: With that in mind, I 19 would be willing to support that. I have no 20 other comments. 21 CHAIRMAN IBE: Thank you. 22 Member Skelcy? 23 MS. SKELCY: Would you agree to a 24 one year limitation? 25 MR. GILTNER: I kind of -- I guess
25 1 I sort of assumed I would be back in a year 2 if I hadn't sold it in a year. 3 MS. SKELCY: Thank you. 4 CHAIRMAN IBE: Thank you, Member 5 Skelcy. Do we have any additional questions 6 or comments regarding this particular case? 7 Seeing none, I will taken a 8 motion. 9 MR. GHANNAM: If not, I will make a 10 motion. I will make two motions, one for 11 approval, one for denial. 12 First I will make a motion in 13 Case No. 12-045, for 44700 Grand River to 14 approve the applicant's request for one 48 15 square foot sign that will be front of the 16 I-96 freeway side of the building, for a 17 period of one year or when the property is 18 sold. 19 The request is based on 20 circumstances or features that are 21 exceptional and unique to the property and do 22 not result in conditions that exist generally 23 in the city. 24 Failure to grant relief will 25 unreasonably prevent the limited use of the
26 1 property and will result in substantial more 2 than a mere inconvenience. 3 The grant of relief will not 4 result in the use of the structure that is 5 incompatible with or unreasonably interferes 6 with adjacent or surrounding properties. 7 MS. SKELCY: Second. 8 CHAIRMAN IBE: Seeing a motion has 9 been made and seconded, do we have any need 10 for further discussion? 11 Seeing none, please call roll. 12 MS. PAWLOWSKI: Member Gedeon? 13 MR. GEDEON: Yes. 14 MS. PAWLOWSKI: Member Gerblick? 15 MR. GERBLICK: Yes. 16 MS. PAWLOWSKI: Member Ghannam? 17 MR. GHANNAM: Yes. 18 MS. PAWLOWSKI: Chairman Ibe? 19 CHAIRMAN IBE: Yes. 20 MS. PAWLOWSKI: Member Krieger? 21 MS. KRIEGER: Yes. 22 MS. PAWLOWSKI: Member Skelcy? 23 MS. SKELCY: Yes. 24 MS. PAWLOWSKI: Member Ferrell? 25 MR. FERRELL: Yes.
27 1 MS. PAWLOWSKI: Motion passes seven 2 to zero. 3 CHAIRMAN IBE: Thank you. 4 MR. GILTNER: Can I -- the reason 5 for the number of signs that are currently 6 there, is you got three different buildings 7 that total 205,000 feet, one of the buildings 8 is 105, another building is 80,000 and 9 another building is 25,000. So each of the 10 signs in front of the property identifies 11 those particular sizes because they can be 12 leased individually. 13 I'm thinking that I do need 14 the number of signs that I originally 15 requested. 16 CHAIRMAN IBE: Sir, I am quite sure 17 you have been following the procedures since 18 we started, and it appears you now have taken 19 a change of heart, is that what I am hearing? 20 MR. GILTNER: Well, I didn't see 21 much need for all those signs in the 22 beginning, but now after thinking about it, I 23 think a sign in front of each of the 24 buildings identifying that particular size of 25 the building is kind of important.
28 1 MR. GEDEON: Well, you've got 48 2 square feet to work with. I mean, I think 3 it's just a matter of adjusting the text on 4 your sign, you know, on 48 square feet that 5 you have to identify the properties, the 6 building, so the options for leasing as you 7 see fit. 8 MR. GILTNER: There would be no way 9 to fit on that sign available 205,000 square 10 feet or 105,000 square feet or 80,000 square 11 feet or 25,000 square feet, wouldn't be 12 possible. 13 MR. GHANNAM: Just a quick comment, 14 your building No. 2 does not face Grand River 15 or 96, it faces a railroad, which you're not 16 going to have any people driving the rails. 17 I think that's -- 18 MR. GILTNER: That could be a very 19 small sign, just saying 25,000 feet. 20 MR. GHANNAM: You wouldn't have 21 people coming onto the campus to even look at 22 that building? They would either be caught 23 by either a sign on 96 or a sign on Grand 24 River. 25 MR. GILTNER: Correct.
29 1 MS. SKELCY: I mean, I don't want 2 to tell you how to do your signs, but you 3 could certainly say, up to 80,000 square 4 feet, or an area of square footage. I mean, 5 I think as Member Gedeon said, you can 6 accommodate language on the sign, maybe the 7 name of the broker is a little bit smaller, 8 but I think you can accommodate that. 9 Even if you made a request, I 10 think the feeling of the Board is, five signs 11 is too many. 12 CHAIRMAN IBE: City attorney, 13 what's your opinion in the change of heart? 14 MS. SAARELA: I mean, the change of 15 heart obviously is one thing, it's whether or 16 not your viewpoints have changed based on 17 what he said. 18 If none of your viewpoints 19 have changed, then they would be willing -- 20 no need to change the motion. 21 If someone has changed their 22 mind, based on what he's told you, the 23 procedure would be -- would be for someone to 24 move for reconsideration, then you would need 25 a majority to agree to reconsider the motion,
30 1 and then you would have to put a new motion 2 on the table after that. 3 MR. GHANNAM: In my opinion, we 4 have already finished the first case. This 5 particular case, this parcel has two 6 buildings, and I think what he wants is one 7 for 96 and one for that second smaller 8 building. 9 I'm still comfortable with 10 going ahead with and denying the balance of 11 the two -- that the Board was inclined to 12 approve one for the smaller building, I would 13 say that, not if, either way. 14 MR. GILTNER: I may respond -- 15 CHAIRMAN IBE: No, sir, you may 16 not. Not at this time. 17 From my understanding, we do 18 have a motion already made, is that correct? 19 MR. GHANNAM: We already made a 20 motion to approve one large sign. Now the 21 balance of the two signs that are left, which 22 we can approve one or both, or deny one or 23 both. 24 CHAIRMAN IBE: Very well. Sir, 25 just as a courtesy, what were you going to
31 1 say, sir? 2 MR. GILTNER: Well, if a sign says 3 up to 80,000 feet, the text on the sign would 4 actually be up to 205,000 feet. But somebody 5 looking for a 25,000 foot building, or even 6 an 80,000 foot building, is not real likely 7 to call on a sign that says up to 205,000 8 square feet. 9 CHAIRMAN IBE: Thank you, sir. 10 Well, I'm bringing it back to the Board and 11 ask the Board's opinion as to which -- 12 obviously, we feel the same way based on 13 prior discussion, then I will entertain a 14 motion to deny the other motion. 15 But if not, then if anybody 16 wishes to change their mind, we can move -- 17 yes? 18 MR. GERBLICK: I think the overall 19 purpose of the sign is really to draw people 20 into the property, to take a look at the 21 property. 22 MR. GILTNER: Right. 23 MR. GERBLICK: As Member Gedeon had 24 mentioned, you have to drive onto the 25 property to see the positioning of those
32 1 other signs in front of the other building, 2 so the original goal of having this sign has 3 pretty been accomplished by someone driving 4 onto the property. 5 MR. GILTNER: Right. 6 MR. GERBLICK: As the other members 7 have mentioned, you could change your wording 8 to read whatever you want. 9 But if that one highway sign 10 is an option of getting people onto the 11 property, I don't really see a need for any 12 additional signs. I would not support any 13 additional signs. 14 CHAIRMAN IBE: Very well. Do we 15 have any additional questions or comments? 16 MR. GHANNAM: Well, I have no 17 problem with the 48 square foot sign on the 18 building facing 96, the second building which 19 he is requesting, a smaller 24 square foot 20 sign, I guess that's a toss-up. 21 No one is going to see it 22 driving by Grand River, no one is going to 23 see it by 96, you have got to be drawn to the 24 property to see it. 25 I understand the theory of
33 1 when someone is in, you want to advertise the 2 square footage of that building, and it is a 3 separate building, but like I said, that's 4 fairly a toss-up for me. 5 CHAIRMAN IBE: I will entertain a 6 motion, either based on what the Board 7 Members decide as -- 8 MS. SKELCY: In the Case of 12-045, 9 44700 Grand River, I will move that we deny 10 the request for the two 24 square foot signs 11 and a singular 24 foot sign that was so 12 requested. 13 Based on the fact that the 14 request is not based upon circumstances or 15 features that are exceptional or unique to 16 the property and do not result in conditions 17 that generally exist in the city, and they 18 are not self-created. 19 The failure to grant relief 20 will not unreasonably prevent or limit the 21 use of the property. 22 The grant of relief will not 23 result in a use of the structure that is 24 incompatible or unreasonably interferes with 25 adjacent or surrounding properties.
34 1 This is based on the fact that 2 a large sign will be placed for this parcel 3 on the freeway and draw people into the 4 location and that the sign for the location 5 can indicate the one that has been granted 6 for 48 square feet, can indicate the square 7 footage of the parcels. 8 MR. GEDEON: Second. 9 CHAIRMAN IBE: Seeing a motion has 10 been made and seconded, do we have any need 11 for further discussion? 12 (No audible responses.) 13 Seeing none, please call the 14 roll. 15 MS. PAWLOWSKI: Member Gedeon? 16 MR. GEDEON: Yes. 17 MS. PAWLOWSKI: Member Gerblick? 18 MR. GERBLICK: Yes. 19 MS. PAWLOWSKI: Member Ghannam? 20 MR. GHANNAM: Yes. 21 MS. PAWLOWSKI: Chairman Ibe? 22 CHAIRMAN IBE: Yes. 23 MS. PAWLOWSKI: Member Krieger? 24 MS. KRIEGER: Yes. 25 MS. PAWLOWSKI: Member Skelcy?
35 1 MS. SKELCY: Yes. 2 MS. PAWLOWSKI: Member Ferrell? 3 MR. FERRELL: Yes. 4 MS. PAWLOWSKI: Motion passes seven 5 to zero. 6 CHAIRMAN IBE: Thank you. Good 7 luck, sir. 8 That brings us to Case No. 9 PZ-12-046, 44225 Twelve Mile Road, Suite 10 C-118, JD Racing. 11 Will the applicant please come 12 to the podium. 13 Please remember to state your 14 full name and spell your last name for the 15 record. If you're not an attorney, please 16 raise your right hand to be sworn. 17 MR. KRULAS: My name is Kerry 18 Krulas, K-e-r-r-y, K-r-u-l-a-s. 19 MS. KRIEGER: In Case No. 20 PZ-12-046, for 44225 Twelve Mile Road, Suite 21 118, do you swear to tell the truth in this 22 case? 23 MR. KRULAS: I do. Before I begin, 24 I want to apologize to the committee, at the 25 owner's direction, we have as of last Friday
36 1 made a change in the size and sign place and 2 for both elevations receiving signs. 3 The updated drawings should 4 have been included in your packet. I did 5 speak with Frank prior to the meeting and he 6 was generous enough to allow us to make this 7 last minute change. 8 If you don't have those 9 drawings, I can place them on the screen here 10 for you. 11 The new drawings shows a 12 reduction in size of the sign on the north 13 elevation facing Donaldson, for what we were 14 originally requesting was 403 square foot 15 down to 165.4 square feet. 16 The east elevation facing 17 Twelve Mile remains the same size, in 18 addition, the grid work that was originally 19 proposed in which the signs were attached, 20 has been eliminated. 21 We are here to request a 22 variance on two items tonight. The first, 23 seeing an increase of allowable square 24 footage on the north elevation facing 25 Donaldson Drive, from the maximum of 65 feet
37 1 square feet to 165 feet, four square feet, 2 and for an additional sign to be placed on 3 the east elevation facing Twelve Mile Road 4 that is of the same size. 5 We are seeking the variances 6 for several reasons. The east elevation 7 facing Twelve Mile Road and having the most 8 impact from an advertising standpoint, in our 9 opinion, we need a size increase in order to 10 be seen effectively at a distance of 11 approximately 2,500 feet to Twelve Mile and 12 also take into account the speed of the 13 traffic on that road. 14 A similar example of scale and 15 mounting height can be found at Dick's 16 Sporting Goods, just adjacent to JD Racing on 17 Twelve Mile Road. 18 The Donaldson Drive elevation 19 has a couple of issues. The first being the 20 distance of the facade to the Donaldson Drive 21 and West Oaks Drive intersection, that is 22 approximately 750 feet. At that distance, a 23 sign with any less square footage would be 24 unreadable, and it would be esthetically too 25 small in relation to the building's facade.
38 1 The length of that facade, by the way, is 2 246 feet. Anything smaller would fail to 3 draw attention to that elevation. 4 We'd especially like to take 5 advantage of the traffic that is normally 6 heading towards the Emagine Theater and any 7 other business located in that area of the 8 complex. 9 There is also a rise right 10 there at that intersection. And if anyone 11 has ever sat there, when you look over, you 12 would be able to see at least some lighted 13 interest in the sign we're proposing as we're 14 now placing it at about 40 feet, at its 15 highest point, on that Donaldson elevation. 16 Nonetheless, it would at the very least draw 17 some interest just from having some light 18 there. 19 I just drove by that 20 intersection a few minutes ago before I came 21 here, and it's -- you can just see where our 22 sign would be placed. You can just fairly 23 peep and you will be able to see it. 24 In person you will feel that 25 our proposal does not unreasonably interfere
39 1 with adjacent or surrounding properties, and 2 will result in substantial justice being done 3 to our client, and adjacent and surrounding 4 properties is not inconsistent with the 5 spirit of the ordinance. 6 Our research of past variances 7 granted by the city for size increases within 8 the same immediate area includes Sears, the 9 Great Indoors, Powerhouse Gym, Dick's 10 Sporting Goods, ABC Warehouse, Emagine 11 Theater and the Putting Edge. 12 That concludes my opening 13 statement. 14 CHAIRMAN IBE: Thank you, sir. Is 15 there anyone in the audience who would like 16 to make a remark regarding this particular 17 case? 18 (No audible responses.) 19 CHAIRMAN IBE: Seeing none, I will 20 now turn it over to Madam Secretary to read 21 into the record any correspondence. 22 MS. KRIEGER: In Case No. 23 PZ-12-046, for 44225 Twelve Mile Road, it's 24 C-118, there were 29 mailed, zero returns, 25 zero responses.
40 1 CHAIRMAN IBE: Thank you, Madam 2 Secretary. I will now turn to the city and 3 get any comments they have about this case. 4 MS. SAARELA: I have none. 5 MR. BOULARD: Just a question, if I 6 could, to the applicant? 7 CHAIRMAN IBE: Please. 8 MR. BOULARD: The original request 9 was for one sign of 165.4 square feet and the 10 other was 403 square feet. 11 When we talked last, I 12 understood that the request was modified to 13 two signs of the 165.4 square feet that was 14 the smaller of the two, the original 15 requested. 16 MR. KRULAS: That's correct. 17 MR. BOULARD: The sign here that 18 you're showing us is smaller still. This is 19 158, instead of being 103 by 168, it's 96 by 20 144. 21 So I guess my question is, 22 what is it that you actually want? 23 MR. KRULAS: You know what, I 24 apologize. It looks like I may have put the 25 wrong drawing up there. My apologies.
41 1 MR. BOULARD: Just wanted to make 2 sure you're getting what you're asking for. 3 Nothing further. Thank you. 4 CHAIRMAN IBE: Very well. I will 5 now open up this case to the Board for 6 discussion. Anyone care to ask a question or 7 comment? 8 MR. GEDEON: I will make just a 9 comment. I guess I'm inclined to go ahead 10 with this even though 165, you know, seems 11 very large. We have had cases like this in 12 the past, where there is considerable amount 13 of white space. That, you know, countered 14 against the application. 15 So it's really -- in my 16 opinion, you know, it's not as overpowering 17 as a 165 square foot sign could be. So I 18 don't really have a problem with this at all. 19 CHAIRMAN IBE: Thank you, Member 20 Gedeon. 21 Yes, Member Skelcy? 22 MS. SKELCY: Can we restrict this 23 to this particular tenant? 24 MS. SAARELA: You can. Just in 25 general, Zoning Board of Appeals law
42 1 restricting it to the tenant is not 2 preferred, it usually runs with the land, but 3 this doesn't prevent you or prohibit you from 4 doing that, if that's what you feel is 5 appropriate. 6 MS. SKELCY: Thank you. 7 MR. GHANNAM: I understand the 8 Twelve Mile request, it's the main 9 thoroughfare, but the side street, the people 10 really maneuver around the complex, but I 11 understand more is better, bigger is better, 12 all of that, but I'm just having trouble with 13 that side one, such a large one at that. 14 MR. KRULAS: This is the north 15 elevation we are talking about? 16 MR. GHANNAM: It would be the east. 17 I have no problem with the north. It's the 18 east elevation. 19 MR. KRULAS: Right, and I can 20 certainly see that. Basically what we did, 21 when we were surveying this property to begin 22 with, there was a couple of things that we 23 did, and what we did, we sent a truck out to 24 scope out the site, and we do this on several 25 jobs, especially when we are doing a survey,
43 1 we will go out with a light and usually it's 2 just a hand fluorescent light, and we will 3 hold it at the elevation of the right part of 4 the building, then we start driving up and 5 down the road. 6 This sign has elements that 7 light, it is not entirely lit. JD Racing and 8 the red scoop design are the main 9 illumination and there are some exposed neon 10 parts that outline the flag, but the entire 11 face of the sign doesn't light, so, you know, 12 during the day, yes, definitely, I mean, it 13 doesn't appear -- I mean, to me, just my 14 opinion, it doesn't appear that large because 15 I am trying to draw any kind of attention at 16 that intersection, we just feel that at the 17 very least gives some idea that there is 18 something going on over there. 19 And, you know, I can't assume 20 that the intersection that people generally 21 are, you know, going to Emagine Theater or 22 any number of restaurants, if you hang a left 23 there. You know, that's kind of an 24 entertainment district of that area. Whereas 25 JD Racing and, you know, Dick's Sporting
44 1 Goods, that's more service oriented. 2 MR. GHANNAM: Isn't there windows 3 on the east side of the building where people 4 can see inside what's going on, or no? 5 MR. KRULAS: There are windows 6 there actually. It's just that from the 7 distance, which is about 400 feet from 8 Donaldson, it's really hard to see. It's 9 really hard to see on anything. It's hard to 10 look inside, you know, you can't see inside. 11 MR. GHANNAM: There is not going to 12 be an entrance on the Donaldson, east 13 elevation, is there? 14 MR. KRULAS: There is. That's the 15 main entrance actually. 16 MR. GHANNAM: Is there an entrance 17 on Twelve Mile also? 18 MR. KRULAS: No, there is not. 19 MR. GHANNAM: So the main entrance 20 is going to be on Donaldson or at least 21 facing Donaldson? 22 MR. KRULAS: Yes. 23 MR. GHANNAM: I don't have any 24 other questions. Thank you. 25 CHAIRMAN IBE: Thank you, Member
45 1 Ghannam. 2 MR. FERRELL: I got a question. 3 You said you held up a light for the sign, is 4 that the actual size that you're proposing, 5 or is it just a light to see the lighting -- 6 MR. KRULAS: It was just a light to 7 kind of see in broad daylight, the evening at 8 that distance. You know, I mean, during the 9 day, it would -- it's easier to visualize 10 just because I can focus on the architecture 11 itself, but at night you can't see anything. 12 So it's just a tool that we 13 use to make sure that we're -- you know, in 14 this case, we are using some exposure on the 15 sign. I want to make sure it would even be 16 effective at that distance. 17 MR. FERRELL: I think there is 18 another drawing with a smaller sign. Have 19 you thought about that size as well? 20 MR. KRULAS: We did think about 21 that size, but what happens is even though we 22 do still get some light there, by nature of 23 their word mark, JD Racing becomes almost 24 invisible, indoor carting is somewhat 25 visible.
46 1 If you would like, I could put 2 that other rendering back up there, if you 3 like. That has the -- kind of shows that a 4 little bit. 5 MR. FERRELL: If you could. 6 MR. KRULAS: Sure. Let's see if we 7 can -- it's kind of a side-by-side, how about 8 we do this. 9 So basically, we are just 10 allowing a little less light, but it's 11 important -- I mean, since the distance we 12 are traveling from, we're relying mostly 13 on -- especially in evening on the globe, 14 whatever light we can generate. I just feel 15 that anything less would be -- would just be 16 a disservice, you know, for the money that's 17 being spent on the sign and so forth. 18 I just -- you know, I'm just 19 advocating for the customer. You know, I'm 20 trying to get the best value for the size. 21 I do understand, you know, 22 trying to keep it to the minimum. I wouldn't 23 suggest anything more than what I thought we 24 would need. 25 MR. FERRELL: Thank you.
47 1 CHAIRMAN IBE: Thank you. Is there 2 any further questions or comments? If not, I 3 will entertain a motion. 4 MR. GEDEON: In the Case 12-046, 5 44225 Twelve Mile Road, Suite C118, JD 6 Racing, I move to approve a variance for two 7 wall signs of 165.4 square feet each. 8 This request is based on 9 circumstances and features that are 10 exceptional and unique to the property and do 11 not result from conditions that exist 12 generally in the city. Specifically, this 13 property has a very large footprint to it, 14 and are considerable distances from the 15 adjacent Twelve Mile Road and the other side 16 street, which is Donaldson Drive, yes. 17 Failure to grant relief will 18 unreasonably prevent the limited use of the 19 property, and will result in substantially 20 more than a mere inconvenience or inability 21 to obtain a higher economic or financial 22 return. 23 The grant of relief will not 24 result in the use of structure that is 25 incompatible with or unreasonably interferes
48 1 with adjacent or surrounding properties, 2 specifically, this is a shopping district and 3 people are accustomed to larger signs in such 4 an area. 5 MS. KRIEGER: Second. 6 CHAIRMAN IBE: I will just -- in 7 terms of discussion, I would just recommend 8 you limit it to this tenant. 9 Here's the reason why. Even 10 though it's 165 foot, it doesn't look like 11 it, if you mention, and if this tenant left, 12 and get another tenant, 165 could be very 13 loud and obnoxious, so I would request that 14 you limit it to this tenant. 15 MR. GEDEON: That's fine. I would 16 like to amend the motion to limit the 17 variance to this tenant, and more 18 specifically to a sign that has a comparable 19 amount of white space to it. 20 MS. KRIEGER: I am agreeable. 21 CHAIRMAN IBE: Seeing that motion 22 has been made and seconded, any further 23 discussion? 24 (No audible responses.) 25 CHAIRMAN IBE: Seeing none, please
49 1 call the roll. 2 MS. PAWLOWSKI: Member Gedeon? 3 MR. GEDEON: Yes. 4 MS. PAWLOWSKI: Member Gerblick? 5 MR. GERBLICK: Yes. 6 MS. PAWLOWSKI: Member Ghannam? 7 MR. GHANNAM: Yes. 8 MS. PAWLOWSKI: Chairman Ibe? 9 CHAIRMAN IBE: Yes. 10 MS. PAWLOWSKI: Member Krieger? 11 MS. KRIEGER: Yes. 12 MS. PAWLOWSKI: Member Skelcy? 13 MS. SKELCY: Yes. 14 MS. PAWLOWSKI: Member Ferrell? 15 MR. FERRELL: Yes. 16 MS. PAWLOWSKI: Motion passes seven 17 to zero. 18 CHAIRMAN IBE: Thank you, sir. 19 Good luck. 20 MR. KRULAS: Thank you very much. 21 CHAIRMAN IBE: We'll recall Case 22 No. PZ-12-043, 22700 Heslip Drive, Bellanger, 23 Inc.. Is the applicant here? 24 (No audible responses.) 25 MR. GHANNAM: I did see other
50 1 people walk in and walk out. 2 MR. BOULARD: I didn't recognize 3 them. 4 CHAIRMAN IBE: Seeing that Case 5 PZ-12-043 was the first case on the agenda 6 today and was called and was passed and 7 called again, and seeing that no one has 8 appeared, do we need to entertain a motion to 9 either -- 10 MS. SAARELA: You can either table 11 it or you can deny it. 12 CHAIRMAN IBE: Or we can deny it. 13 MR. GHANNAM: I have no problem -- 14 we have gotten no response why they're not 15 here or no call, no show. I have no problem 16 moving to adjourn this to the November 17 hearing, since this is their first time up. 18 MS. PAWLOWSKI: November 20th. 19 MR. GHANNAM: I will move to 20 adjourn this to November 20th. 21 MS. SKELCY: Second. 22 CHAIRMAN IBE: Seeing a motion has 23 been made and seconded to move Case No. 24 PZ-12-043, 22700, do we have any further 25 discussion?
51 1 If not, Madam Secretary please 2 call the roll again. 3 MS. PAWLOWSKI: Member Gedeon? 4 MR. GEDEON: Yes. 5 MS. PAWLOWSKI: Member Gerblick? 6 MR. GERBLICK: Yes. 7 MS. PAWLOWSKI: Member Ghannam? 8 MR. GHANNAM: Yes. 9 MS. PAWLOWSKI: Chairman Ibe? 10 CHAIRMAN IBE: Yes. 11 MS. PAWLOWSKI: Member Krieger? 12 MS. KRIEGER: Yes. 13 MS. PAWLOWSKI: Member Skelcy? 14 MS. SKELCY: Yes. 15 MS. PAWLOWSKI: Member Ferrell? 16 MR. FERRELL: Yes. 17 MS. PAWLOWSKI: Motion passes seven 18 to zero. 19 CHAIRMAN IBE: Thank you very much. 20 That concludes our cases for today. 21 That will bring us to other 22 matters. Do we have any other matters that 23 the Board should take up at this time? 24 MR. BOULARD: Just if you don't 25 mind, for the case that was adjourned, if you
52 1 wouldn't mind -- you had the Zoning Board of 2 Appeals -- or the planner memo that was in 3 the gray folder, also if you wanted to use 4 the P case in there, we will save the paper. 5 CHAIRMAN IBE: Thank you very much. 6 So noted. 7 Do we have any additional 8 matters to be discussed by the Board? 9 (No audible responses.) 10 CHAIRMAN IBE: Seeing none, I will 11 entertain a motion to adjourn. 12 MR. GHANNAM: So moved. 13 MR. GERBLICK: Second. 14 CHAIRMAN IBE: All in favor say 15 aye. 16 THE BOARD: Aye. 17 CHAIRMAN IBE: All opposed? 18 (No audible responses.) 19 CHAIRMAN IBE: Seeing none, this 20 meeting is hereby adjourned. 21 (The meeting was adjourned at 7:51 p.m.) 22 ** ** ** 23 24 25
53 1 STATE OF MICHIGAN ) 2 ) ss. 3 COUNTY OF OAKLAND ) 4 I, Jennifer L. Wall, Notary Public within and for the 5 County of Oakland, State of Michigan, do hereby certify that the 6 witness whose attached deposition was taken before me in the 7 above entitled matter was by me duly sworn at the aforementioned 8 time and place; that the testimony given by said witness was 9 stenographically recorded in the presence of said witness and 10 afterward transcribed by computer under my personal supervision, 11 and that the said deposition is a full, true and correct 12 transcript of the testimony given by the witness. 13 I further certify that I am not connected by blood or 14 marriage with any of the parties or their attorneys, and that I 15 am not an employee of either of them, nor financially interested 16 in the action. 17 IN WITNESS THEREOF, I have hereunto set my hand at the 18 City of Walled Lake, County of Oakland, State of Michigan. 19 20 21 ________________ _________________________ Date Jennifer L. Wall CSR-4183 22 Oakland County, Michigan My Commission Expires 11/12/15 23 24 25
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