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MEETING - ZONING BOARD OF APPEALS Proceedings had and testimony taken in the matters of the ZONING BOARD OF APPEALS, at City of Novi, 45175 West Ten Mile Road, Novi, Michigan, Tuesday, January 12, 2010. BOARD MEMBERS ALSO PRESENT: REPORTED BY: 1 Novi, Michigan 2 Tuesday, January 12, 2010 3 7:00 p.m. 4 - - - - - - 5 CHAIRPERSON GHANNAM: I'd like to call 6 this meeting to order. If we can all rise 7 for the pledge of allegiance, please. I'll 8 have our newest member, Ms. Skelcy, lead us 9 in the pledge of allegiance. 10 BOARD MEMBERS: I pledge allegiance to 11 the flag of the United States of America, 12 and to the republic for which it stands, one 13 nation under God indivisible with liberty 14 and justice for all. 15 CHAIRPERSON GHANNAM: Thank you. Mr. 16 Boulard, would you like to bring something 17 to our attention? 18 MR. BOULARD: Thank you. Just for the 19 record, we are missing our Chairman and 20 Vice-Chairman, the Chairperson tonight, so 21 as an order of business we would need to, I 22 believe, appoint a Chairman and a Secretary 23 for the duration of the meeting. So, with 24 that said, I will certainly turn that over
4 1 to -- 2 CHAIRPERSON GHANNAM: So, if we can 3 have a nomination for Chair? 4 MEMBER CASSIS: I move that we appoint 5 Mr. Ghannam as the chairman. 6 MEMBER IBE: I'll second that. 7 CHAIRPERSON GHANNAM: All in favor say 8 aye? 9 BOARD MEMBERS: Aye. 10 CHAIRPERSON GHANNAM: All opposed? 11 (No response.) 12 CHAIRPERSON GHANNAM: So, we will have 13 appointed myself as Chairman for tonight. 14 And for Secretary we would need someone to 15 read the Minutes and so forth and swear in 16 witnesses, so I would like to move to have 17 Ms. Krieger as our Secretary tonight just 18 for tonight's purposes. 19 MEMBER CASSIS: Second. 20 CHAIRPERSON GHANNAM: All in favor? 21 BOARD MEMBERS: Aye. 22 CHAIRPERSON GHANNAM: All opposed? 23 (No response.) 24 CHAIRPERSON GHANNAM: Is that
5 1 sufficient to have both? 2 MS. KUDLA: Yes. 3 CHAIRPERSON GHANNAM: Okay. So, if we 4 can have roll call, please. 5 MS. MARTIN: Member Ibe? 6 MEMBER IBE: Present. 7 MS. MARTIN: Member Cassis? 8 MEMBER CASSIS: Here. 9 MS. MARTIN: Member Krieger? 10 MEMBER KRIEGER: Present. 11 MS. MARTIN: Member Skelcy? 12 MEMBER SKELCY: Here. 13 MS. MARTIN: Chairman Ghannam? 14 CHAIRPERSON GHANNAM: Here. And as 15 you mentioned we have two absent, but we do 16 have a quorum tonight, correct? 17 MS. KUDLA: Yes. 18 CHAIRPERSON GHANNAM: I am going to go 19 over some of the rules of conduct for 20 tonight's purposes. Please turn off your 21 pagers and cell phones during our meeting. 22 The applicant or representative for these 23 cases will be asked to come forth, state 24 their name and address and be sworn in by
6 1 our secretary. The applicants will be 2 allowed five minutes to address the Board 3 and present their case. An extension of 4 time may be granted at the discretion of the 5 Chairperson. 6 Anyone in the audience who wishes to 7 address the Board regarding the current case 8 will be asked by the Chairman to raise their 9 hands to be recognized. 10 Members of the audience will be 11 allowed to address the Board once unless 12 directly questioned by a Board Member or the 13 Chairperson. The Chairperson will turn the 14 case over to the Board for discussion, 15 clarification and entertain a motion where 16 appropriate. 17 Impromptu statements from the audience 18 during discussion by the Board will be 19 considered out of order. Any roll call vote 20 will be taken to approve or deny the motion 21 on the table and the next case will be 22 called. 23 And for tonight's purposes because we 24 only have five, my understanding is that for
7 1 a non-use variance, four votes out of five 2 of the present members is required. And for 3 a use variance there is going to be five 4 necessary; is that correct? 5 MS. KUDLA: We don't have any use 6 variances on the agenda. 7 CHAIRPERSON GHANNAM: Okay. So, all 8 votes tonight will require at least four of 9 the five members. And we can offer to 10 anybody if they want a full Board to come 11 back? 12 MS. KUDLA: That's correct. 13 CHAIRPERSON GHANNAM: Okay. So, if 14 there is anybody out there with a case that 15 wants a full Board as opposed to the five 16 present you can come now and we can consider 17 a motion to adjourn the matter. Is there 18 any? 19 (No response.) 20 CHAIRPERSON GHANNAM: Seeing none, 21 we'll move on. We'll go over the agenda. 22 Are there any additions or deletions to the 23 agenda? 24 MS. MARTIN: No, there is not.
8 1 CHAIRPERSON GHANNAM: Anybody else 2 have any comments or concerns about the 3 agenda? 4 (No response.) 5 CHAIRPERSON GHANNAM: Seeing none, I 6 will entertain a motion to approve the 7 agenda. 8 MEMBER CASSIS: Motion to approve. 9 MEMBER IBE: Second. 10 CHAIRPERSON GHANNAM: Any further 11 discussion? Seeing none, all in favor to 12 approve the agenda say aye? 13 BOARD MEMBERS: Aye. 14 CHAIRPERSON GHANNAM: All opposed? 15 The agenda is approved. 16 And how about the Minutes of the 17 meeting, you were all given a package for 18 the Minutes of the November 10th meeting. 19 Are there any comments or concerns or 20 additions or deletions for the Minutes of 21 the meeting? 22 MS. KUDLA: I have two changes. My 23 first change is page 39, line 2, where it 24 indicates: Un-complete site issues. It
9 1 should be incomplete site issues. 2 And then page 40, line 24 what is 3 listed as R-A-L-U-P-A, it should be 4 R-L-U-I-P-A. Those are my only two changes. 5 CHAIRPERSON GHANNAM: Any other 6 suggested changes or modifications to the 7 Minutes of the November 10th, meeting? 8 Okay. Seeing none, I would entertain a 9 motion to approve the Minutes as amended. 10 MEMBER CASSIS: Move to approve the 11 Minutes as amended. 12 MEMBER IBE: Second. 13 CHAIRPERSON GHANNAM: Any further 14 discussion? Seeing none, all in favor say 15 aye? 16 BOARD MEMBERS: Aye. 17 CHAIRPERSON GHANNAM: All opposed? 18 Seeing none, the Minutes of the November 19 10th, meeting are approved. 20 There is a section at this point for 21 public remarks. If anybody cares to make a 22 public comment not on a pending case, you 23 can step forward and make that now if there 24 are any.
10 1 (No response.) 2 CHAIRPERSON GHANNAM: Seeing none, 3 we'll close the public remark section and we 4 will move to our first case. 5 The first case being 09-051 for 1627 6 West Lake Drive. MJ Whelan Construction 7 Company is requesting a variance to allow 8 construction of a two story addition to an 9 existing non-conforming residence at 1627 10 West Lake Drive. In addition to the 11 following dimensional variances, the 12 project requires an exception to 2502.3.A 13 to allow expansion of a non-conforming 14 structure. Property is zoned R-4 and is 15 located south of Pontiac Trial and east of 16 West Park Drive. 17 Will the applicant please come 18 forward. Sir, if you can state your full 19 name. 20 MR. WHELAN: Yeah, Mat Whelan. 21 CHAIRPERSON GHANNAM: Are you an 22 attorney? 23 MR. WHELAN: No, I am not. 24 CHAIRPERSON GHANNAM: Okay, you need
11 1 to raise your right hand and be sworn in by 2 our secretary. 3 MEMBER KRIEGER: Do you swear in case 4 number: 09-051 on 1627 West Lake Drive to 5 tell the truth in this case? 6 MR. WHELAN: Yes, I do. 7 MEMBER KRIEGER: Thank you. 8 CHAIRPERSON GHANNAM: State your 9 address and then proceed with your case. 10 MR. WHELAN: The address of our 11 business or this -- 12 CHAIRPERSON GHANNAM: Your business is 13 fine. 14 MR. WHELAN: 620 North Milford Road is 15 our place of business. 16 And what's before you this morning -- 17 I mean, this evening, I'm sorry, is a couple 18 of variances that we were hoping to get 19 passed by this Board. The process that we 20 used to go through this was, it's been 21 almost a year, almost a year we actually 22 were called out onto the site and the 23 owners, they have an existing garage that's 24 in disrepair.
12 1 The house as it sits is 2 non-compliant so anything we did to it we 3 were going to probably end up in front of 4 this Board. So, there was a desire to 5 attach the garage to the house. At that 6 point we went ahead and got an engineer, 7 took a look at how the site was laid out and 8 how the house was laid out. 9 And respecting all of the 10 boundaries that are and our restrictions, we 11 really tried to come up with the best case 12 scenario that would allow something that 13 looked appealing to the community and the 14 neighbors and still tried to stay within the 15 same, you know, criteria that the other 16 homes that were remodeled in the same, you 17 know, adjacent to it, next to it, on the 18 same street. Really what's before you now 19 is our best, our best approach to this Board 20 and the homeowners on what we would like to 21 do. 22 So, I think the highlights of it 23 mainly would -- that I think would pertain 24 to the Board is, outside of the request for
13 1 the variances, the garage width on it is 2 something that it's only 20 foot wide. We 3 would obviously love to have a wider garage 4 than 20 foot wide. It's hardly a two car 5 garage. I felt to try to stay as compliant 6 as possible we narrowed that up. Along with 7 the front porch, we kept that as narrow as 8 possible to try to hold down on the variance 9 requests. 10 One of the things that made the site 11 difficult was the existing house and how it 12 sits on the lot is skewed, so it doesn't 13 parallel the property line. So, unless we 14 decided to draw an addition that turned and 15 just would be very unappealing, it really 16 left us with the situation that's before you 17 this evening. 18 Those are the highlights. Of course, 19 I can answer any other questions you may 20 have. 21 CHAIRPERSON GHANNAM: I'll open for 22 public remarks at this time on this case. 23 Is there anybody in the audience that would 24 like to comment on this case?
14 1 (No response.) 2 CHAIRPERSON GHANNAM: Seeing none, I 3 will close that section and ask the City if 4 they have any comments? 5 MR. BOULARD: Thank you. This request 6 is typical of many that the Board sees for 7 lake lots. And the variances are, the 8 variances are numerous because of the tight 9 situation. In particular, I want to point 10 out that there is a variance, several 11 variances for eave projection into the 12 setbacks. The zoning ordinance allows a 13 maximum of two inches for every one foot of 14 setback with required side setbacks for 15 eaves. In this case the eaves exceed that 16 allowable amount, so that's why those show 17 up. 18 I did request that our acting fire 19 marshal take a look at this and for 20 comments, knowing that the Board typically 21 request those. His comments were, his 22 suggestion was that if there is any way 23 possible to reconfigure the proposed eaves 24 to lessen the non-conformance and eliminate
15 1 three to four variances by reducing the 2 overhang and eliminating part of the 3 addition to the west side to reduce the 4 setback. So, those were his suggestions. 5 Also in anticipation of any questions 6 I want to just clarify that the Building 7 Code, the Michigan Residential Code this 8 would fall under would actually require fire 9 resistance ratings for basically any walls, 10 projections and so on that are within five 11 feet of the property line. So, whatever 12 this Board decides if the project goes 13 forward, those would be the requirements for 14 the Building Code. So, those are some 15 things that will be taken care of or have to 16 be addressed. With that said, if there are 17 any questions, I would be happy to answer 18 them. 19 CHAIRPERSON GHANNAM: Okay. I'll open 20 it up for questions from the Board. Anybody 21 from the Board? Oh, thank you, Mr. Ibe. I 22 would like the Secretary to read any 23 correspondence that we received. 24 MEMBER KRIEGER: In case number:
16 1 09-051, 51 notices were mailed and three 2 returned mail. Three approvals, no 3 objections. First approval, no comment. 4 We're next door to 1627. 5 The second one was an approval. 6 "Congratulations on your decision to expand 7 your home on West Lake Drive. It will add 8 value to our community. 9 Wendy and I hope that your family will be 10 pleased with the results." And that's from 11 1651. 12 The third one is, "I give my approval 13 for the applicant for his request." From 14 1611 West Lake. That's it. 15 CHAIRPERSON GHANNAM: Now I'll open it 16 up for any questions from the Board. Ms. 17 Skelcy? 18 MEMBER SKELCY: The City has a concern 19 about the eaves on the upper part. And I 20 was wondering why they were sticking out so 21 far. Was that part of the ambience of the 22 design of the house? 23 MR. WHELAN: Yeah, it's a little over 24 the eaves quite a bit. And we probably
17 1 could have gotten less eaves there by just 2 making the footprint bigger, but that would 3 probably be even harder to explain to you. 4 The real issue is it just turns into like a 5 tree fort type look. It's just tall, 6 skinny. And the real thought behind it is 7 the house right next to it is almost four 8 foot six off the property line. So, we were 9 still trying to not exasperate the 10 situation, but not make it look so ugly. 11 You know, it just really, it just helps with 12 the overall look of the home. 13 The eave itself is 12 foot off the 14 ground level. I thought, or at least me and 15 my designer thought that that would be less 16 obtrusive as far as a variance is concerned 17 as opposed to trying -- if we widen the 18 footprint we could lower the eave down and 19 make the house seem just more appealing. 20 But by keeping that footprint skinnier, we 21 didn't get close to the lot lines. But the 22 overhang has got bigger just to kind of help 23 with the look of the home is really the 24 reasoning. It just doesn't look as good
18 1 without the bigger eaves. 2 You know, again, that's, I think 3 that's a value added community wise and 4 everything else, you know, as opposed to 5 driving down the street and saying, what did 6 they do that for? You know, that's the 7 reason we're before you. 8 MEMBER SKELCY: Is there going to be 9 any runoff onto the neighbors' property from 10 the eaves? Do they have gutters on them? 11 MR. WHELAN: Yeah, we'll have gutters 12 on the home. Not any more exasperated than 13 the situation they have there now. 14 MEMBER SKELCY: Okay. Thank you. 15 CHAIRPERSON GHANNAM: Any other 16 questions from the Board? Ms. Krieger? 17 MEMBER KRIEGER: On the eaves, the 18 flammability of them compared to other parts 19 of the house? Because I did like the design 20 myself as well. 21 MR. WHELAN: Thank you. 22 MEMBER KRIEGER: How to make the eaves 23 fit in as you say for the ambience of the 24 house, and I guess flammability would be a
19 1 worry, so what's the material? 2 MR. WHELAN: There are some different 3 materials we could use if we get inside that 4 five foot mark as far as a fire wall is 5 concerned. The flammability of the eaves 6 would be very similar to the same rating as 7 the home, you know. 8 MEMBER KRIEGER: Okay. 9 CHAIRPERSON GHANNAM: Anybody else 10 have any questions? Mr. Boulard? 11 MR. BOULARD: I have one question, 12 just a point of clarification. On the 13 existing site plan there is an existing shed 14 along kind of the northeast side of the 15 property that doesn't show up on the -- it's 16 non-conforming. It looks like it was in 17 there possibly and it doesn't show up as far 18 as I can see on the plans. Is that intended 19 to go away? 20 MR. WHELAN: I actually don't know 21 anything about the shed. I don't know. 22 MR. BOULARD: Do you know if it's 23 there now? 24 MR. WHELAN: I don't know if it's
20 1 there now. I'm getting the indication it 2 might still be there. 3 MR. BOULARD: Is that something that 4 would be acceptable to do away with once 5 this nice new garage is -- 6 MR. WHELAN: I'm sure he could 7 probably do away with it -- 8 MR. BOULARD: I was just going to 9 suggest that as maybe a condition. 10 MR. WHELAN: Sure. 11 MR. BOULARD: Thank you. 12 CHAIRPERSON GHANNAM: Any other 13 comments from the Board? Actually while you 14 are all thinking I have got a couple of 15 questions. Did the fire marshal indicate 16 that the eave issue and the variances have 17 anything to do with the safety for the 18 property? 19 MR. BOULARD: That's what he addressed 20 from a fire safety standpoint. So, he 21 looked at it in terms of a fire safety 22 standpoint. 23 CHAIRPERSON GHANNAM: Okay. 24 MR. WHELAN: I think there is a
21 1 certain fall zone that he is dealing with at 2 that point. 3 CHAIRPERSON GHANNAM: Is a certain 4 what? I'm sorry. 5 MR. WHELAN: What they call a fall 6 zone. You know, if a house catches fire and 7 how close you get to the other homes. 8 The home directly next to it on that 9 property line on your site plan, it's only 10 4.6 feet away. I mean, there is a -- 11 they're kind of almost, they are almost two 12 foot worse than we are in the same 13 situation. So, it would be just the corner 14 of the porch, I think which is something to 15 think about. It's not actually a bedroom or 16 living area or something along those lines. 17 CHAIRPERSON GHANNAM: In terms of the 18 side yard setbacks is there anything that 19 you could do to minimize those that you 20 requested? 21 MR. WHELAN: Well, I mean, knowing 22 that we had to come before this Board with 23 something, we have done just about 24 everything that we feel would make sense.
22 1 We tried to respect the side yard setbacks 2 and still have somewhat of a porch and 3 somewhat of a garage. I don't know if we 4 could make the garages any smaller. We 5 certainly can't make the porch any smaller. 6 It just becomes non-useable. It becomes a 7 stoop. From something we would want to get 8 approved to something that we don't, you 9 know, that really wouldn't look good. So, I 10 think we have tried to do everything I can 11 think off. 12 CHAIRPERSON GHANNAM: Anybody else 13 have any questions? 14 MEMBER CASSIS: Yes. Thank you, Mr. 15 Chairman. Yeah, that porch situation maybe 16 is what I have a little problem with. And 17 you said it's just for ambience, you know, 18 to make it look -- 19 MR. WHELAN: Well, we're at four foot 20 six on a porch, by the time you use the 21 railing on 42 inches you could hardly -- 22 that's barely passable. 23 MEMBER CASSIS: I understand that. 24 But I am questioning why put the porch?
23 1 MR. WHELAN: Excuse me? 2 MEMBER CASSIS: Why put the porch? 3 You said it's to make it look better. You 4 know, a little bit more ambience. Is that 5 what you said? 6 MR. WHELAN: Well, yeah, just to try 7 to add some width to the lower section so 8 that we aren't so skinny and tall. 9 MEMBER CASSIS: Can you put, for 10 instance, I have seen windows -- are you 11 going to have windows down there or 12 anything? 13 MR. WHELAN: Yeah, there are windows. 14 MEMBER CASSIS: Well, sometimes you 15 bring out a window maybe 10 inches or 16 something, five or 10 inches and it breaks 17 the wall situation and instead of putting 18 this porch, can you consider something like 19 that? I am trying to -- 20 MR. WHELAN: No, believe me, we have 21 really gone through a lot of design 22 renderings to try to come up with something. 23 MEMBER CASSIS: Did you think of what 24 I'm saying?
24 1 MR. WHELAN: Absolutely. 2 MEMBER CASSIS: What do you call 3 those? 4 MR. WHELAN: The boxed out porches. 5 MEMBER CASSIS: Yeah, yeah. 6 MR. WHELAN: If you actually look at 7 the prints there are several on them 8 already. 9 MEMBER CASSIS: You wouldn't want to 10 -- 11 MR. WHELAN: It wouldn't help to 12 facilitate the entryway much easier. It 13 wouldn't really address, a boxed out window 14 really wouldn't address our entryway and 15 rectify the situation that I think we have. 16 MEMBER CASSIS: Okay, thank you. I 17 appreciate it. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. 18 CHAIRPERSON GHANNAM: Any other 19 questions or comments by the Board? Anybody 20 would like to make a motion on this case? 21 Mr. Ibe? 22 MEMBER IBE: Yes. Well, thank you, 23 Mr. Chair. On case number: 09-051, 1627 24 West Lake Drive, I'll move that we grant the
25 1 variances as requested by the applicant. 2 And the reasons for granting the variance is 3 the fact that the setback, frontage, height, 4 bulk and density requirements unreasonably 5 prevent the use of the property for the 6 permitted use. And the variance would 7 provide substantial justice to the 8 applicant. And the surrounding property 9 area obviously would be elevated in terms of 10 the property values considering the 11 development that the applicant wants to put 12 forward. And there are unique circumstances 13 to this property that should make it 14 allowable for these variances to be granted. 15 And the problem is not self created. 16 The variance requested does not impede 17 any light or air of adjacent properties. 18 And the fire marshal already has taken a 19 look at the property and I believe that one 20 of the conditions that was stated is that 21 the applicant remove the existing 22 non-compliant accessory building. I believe 23 that the applicant said that is okay. 24 MR. WHELAN: Um-hum.
26 1 MEMBER IBE: And the issue of increase 2 of fire danger or public safety is 3 adequately addressed. And finally, the 4 granting of these variances as requested is 5 consistent with the Zoning Ordinance. 6 MEMBER KRIEGER: Second. 7 CHAIRPERSON GHANNAM: Any further 8 discussion? If you can take the roll. 9 MS. MARTIN: Member Ibe? 10 MEMBER IBE: Yes. 11 MS. MARTIN: Member Cassis? 12 MEMBER CASSIS: Yes. 13 MS. MARTIN: Member Krieger? 14 MEMBER KRIEGER: Yes. 15 MS. MARTIN: Member Skelcy? 16 MEMBER SKELCY: Yes. 17 MS. MARTIN: Chairman Ghannam? 18 CHAIRPERSON GHANNAM: Yes. Your 19 variances have been granted. 20 Congratulations. 21 MR. WHELAN: Thank you. 22 CHAIRPERSON GHANNAM: Moving on to the 23 next case, calling case number: 09-052 for 24 27225 Wixom Road, Catholic Central High
27 1 School. Will the applicant step forward. 2 Catholic Central High School is 3 requesting a variance to allow one 4 additional 24 square foot, 54 inch high 5 identification ground sign located at the 6 south entrance to the property of 27225 7 Wixom Road. The proposed sign would include 8 changeable copy. The property is zoned R-1 9 and located south of Grand River and west of 10 Wixom Road. 11 Father, can you please state your name 12 for us? 13 FATHER ELMER: Richard Elmer, 26095 14 Taft Road in Novi. 15 CHAIRPERSON GHANNAM: If you can raise 16 your hand and be sworn, sir. 17 MEMBER KRIEGER: I have a question. 18 Is the swearing in for this case separate 19 from the previous one we just did? Or does 20 his swearing in from the previous case 21 count? 22 MS. KUDLA: We can just have him sworn 23 in again. 24 MEMBER KRIEGER: Okay. In case
28 1 number: 09-052, 27225 Wixom Road for 2 Catholic Central High School, do you swear 3 to tell the truth in this case? 4 FATHER ELMER: I do. 5 MEMBER KRIEGER: Thank you. 6 CHAIRPERSON GHANNAM: Okay, proceed. 7 FATHER ELMER: Sure. Some months ago 8 we requested a sign for our north entrance, 9 a second sign that is, and it was denied. 10 I'm now requesting a one and only sign at 11 the south entrance. Obviously there will 12 still be two signs with the one on the 13 north. That sign is about 600 feet apart 14 from the north sign. There are three homes 15 that are in between the two signs. And I 16 was encouraged by the fact that Novi High 17 School has two signs at their entrances. 18 And, therefore, I was encouraged to apply 19 for this south entrance. 20 I did notice after I had applied when 21 the sign actually went up at the north 22 entrance that it was crowded and we 23 certainly would have had to pare it down. 24 But at the south entrance it's the only one
29 1 there. The sign is meant to announce future 2 events and to celebrate our achievements. 3 CHAIRPERSON GHANNAM: Thank you. 4 FATHER ELMER: You're welcome. 5 CHAIRPERSON GHANNAM: Any comments 6 from the City? 7 MR. BOULARD: Thank you. Nothing to 8 add other than what's included in your 9 packet other than I just wanted to verify 10 that the sign as installed will be far 11 enough back that it won't block the corner 12 clearance for vehicles coming in and out? 13 FATHER ELMER: That's correct. 14 MR. BOULARD: We will need to have it 15 comply with that. 16 FATHER ELMER: Certainly. 17 MR. BOULARD: With that I will turn it 18 over to the Board. If there are any 19 questions please let us know. 20 CHAIRPERSON GHANNAM: If our Secretary 21 could read any correspondence? 22 MEMBER KRIEGER: In case number: 23 09-052, 219 notices were mailed. Thirty 24 returned. Two objections. No approval.
30 1 And the first one -- where do I start? 2 "We strongly oppose the approval of this 3 variance. CC continues to receive special 4 consideration at the expense of the 5 residents, a/k/a the taxpayers and who vote, 6 the people who are eligible to vote in Novi. 7 We are in Island Lake and have to deal with 8 Catholic Central, one, traffic. Two, 9 parking on our street, cutting across 10 private property on game days because they 11 don't have enough parking. Students running 12 CC and track in the streets and not moving 13 out for the cars. And noise from the games. 14 We don't want to pass the large sign every 15 day. CC are not good neighbors. This does 16 not include the water runoff which is a 17 whole different issue. We are tired of the 18 exceptional -- and the rest is not here. 19 MEMBER CASSIS: On the back maybe? 20 MEMBER KRIEGER: No, there is no more 21 on the back. 22 CHAIRPERSON GHANNAM: Who was that 23 sent from? 24 MEMBER KRIEGER: That is from the
31 1 Sittou (ph) family on Fieldstone Drive. 2 MEMBER SKELCY: What's the address? 3 MEMBER KRIEGER: 26436 Fieldstone 4 Drive. 5 And the second one is from Phil and 6 Megan Hodge on Island Lake Drive. "One sign 7 on Wixom Road should be enough to meet the 8 needs of Catholic Central High School. The 9 other schools within the Novi community only 10 have one sign per entrance. Two signs 11 should not be needed. Also the area where 12 Catholic Central is located is highly 13 residential and the addition of another sign 14 would not fit the residential area. We do 15 not feel the variance should be granted." 16 That's it. 17 CHAIRPERSON GHANNAM: So, just the 18 two? 19 MEMBER KRIEGER: Just the two. 20 CHAIRPERSON GHANNAM: I'll open it up 21 for public remarks. Is there anybody in the 22 public who would like to make comments? 23 Please come down. 24 MS. SITTOU: Do I come up there?
32 1 CHAIRPERSON GHANNAM: Yes, please come 2 to the podium. State your name and address. 3 MS. SITTOU (ph): My name is Francis 4 Sittou. My address is 26436 Fieldstone 5 Drive. My husband Tom is in attendance with 6 me. 7 CHAIRPERSON GHANNAM: Can you please 8 raise your hand and be sworn? 9 MS. SITTOU: Yes. 10 MEMBER KRIEGER: In case number: 11 09-052 for 27225 Wixom Road, Catholic 12 Central High School, do you swear to tell 13 the truth in this case? 14 MS. SITTOU: Yes. 15 MEMBER KRIEGER: Thank you. 16 MS. SITTOU: First I congratulate you 17 on reading my submittal. I actually was 18 quite frustrated as you can tell when I 19 wrote it. So, it was cover to cover, so she 20 captured the essence of it. 21 We are objecting to it for two reasons 22 outside of the frustration that is captured 23 in my note. One is, Catholic Central 24 already has a very large lighted sign at
33 1 their main entrance. And as noted it's a 2 residential area and the second sign should 3 not be required as noted with the other Novi 4 public schools. 5 Second, and more importantly and is a 6 concern for us is, the main entrance, the 7 sign proposal is at the secondary entrance 8 since the first one was not approved at the 9 primary entrance to advertise events. That 10 entrance has a traffic light to help 11 facilitate the traffic flow which is 12 significant on game days and event days. 13 The traffic flow is such that traffic has 14 overflowed into Target, Meijers and onto 15 Island Lake. It is to the point on the game 16 days where I learned on the local news that 17 there were 8,000 people in attendance at 18 Catholic Central games which is a whole 19 other issue outside of this Board in terms 20 of compliance and fire safety rules. That 21 the overflow, if you have the sign on the 22 secondary entrance it may encourage people 23 to go into the secondary entrance which does 24 not have any lights to facilitate that
34 1 traffic flow. We already have all the 2 overflow traffic onto Island Lake to the 3 point when we had the game days it was on 4 both sides. And so I have already expressed 5 my concerns to the City relative to that 6 situation regarding, do they have access to 7 the fire hydrant, because that is where the 8 people have forged the path at the fire 9 hydrant to cut across the private berm at 10 Island Lake. And then also because it is a 11 narrow street, is there enough room for an 12 emergency vehicle to go through on game days 13 when you have bumper to bumper parking on 14 both sides of Island Lake. 15 And as I have mentioned to the City, 16 within my own home I have had to call the 17 emergency vehicles twice in the time that we 18 have lived at Island Lake. So, we again are 19 strongly opposing this. We absolutely feel 20 that there have been special consideration 21 across the board which is crossing the line, 22 and outside of that there is valid reasons 23 in terms of they got a large lighted sign. 24 They have got a traffic light. There is
35 1 obviously not enough parking and that's 2 potentially going to encourage more traffic 3 flow onto the private streets. 4 CHAIRPERSON GHANNAM: I have a quick 5 for you. Are you saying the sign would not 6 help facilitate traffic? 7 MS. SITTOU: No, because it's at the 8 second entrance. And at the main entrance 9 where there is the very large sign that 10 could be reconfigured that has the traffic 11 light that's helping with the traffic flow. 12 If they put it at the second entrance which 13 is more used as an exit on that street that 14 they put the sign up now is abutting to 15 Island Lake. So, if people are missing or 16 if there is too much traffic at the light in 17 the main entrance and they go to the second 18 entrance then they go oops, then they are on 19 to Island Lake. 20 I mean, there is a well established -- 21 I mean, my husband and I have called the 22 police department multiple times over the 23 years and the police cars have come out due 24 to the traffic problems that we have had on
36 1 Island Lake. So, there is the sign, that 2 street and that sign is right next to Island 3 Lake. 4 CHAIRPERSON GHANNAM: Thank you, 5 ma'am, for your consideration. 6 MS. SITTOU: Thank you. 7 CHAIRPERSON GHANNAM: Anybody else in 8 the public that would like to make comments 9 on this specific case? 10 (No response.) 11 CHAIRPERSON GHANNAM: Seeing no one 12 else we will close the public remark section 13 and I will open it up to the Board for any 14 questions or comments. Ms. Krieger? 15 MEMBER KRIEGER: I have a question. 16 Regarding this sign, the one that's there 17 now it's celebrating the excellence sign, 18 but in this proposal it says it would 19 include changeable copy. I didn't see how 20 that was in there. I was wondering if you 21 were going to give us a mock-up on that? 22 FATHER ELMER: We could. The 23 changeable copy would be just that the 24 celebrating our excellence is a cloth sign
37 1 that would be removed and then a new sign 2 either announcing events that we have 3 celebrating our achievements would be put up 4 instead. It's easily taken off and another 5 one put on. 6 MEMBER KRIEGER: So, the brick would 7 stay, and in the middle just that part of 8 the sign would change? 9 FATHER ELMER: That's correct. 10 MEMBER KRIEGER: It wouldn't be an 11 electronic digital printout? 12 FATHER ELMER: Yes, it would not be 13 electronic digital. And, by the way, the 14 two bricks that are framing it can be 15 removed in four minutes. Our maintenance 16 people who designed it can do that in case 17 we have to. 18 MEMBER KRIEGER: That's the same sign 19 where the light is? 20 FATHER ELMER: At the south entrance, 21 yes. 22 MEMBER KRIEGER: Are you worried 23 somebody would steal that, though, if it can 24 be removed in four minutes?
38 1 FATHER ELMER: It takes a front loader 2 to remove it. 3 MEMBER KRIEGER: Okay. 4 FATHER ELMER: And we have requested 5 the police to ticket any cars that are 6 parking illegally in Island Lakes during any 7 of our sporting events. That's something 8 that happened toward the end of the year. 9 I'm the president of Catholic Central. I 10 found out about it towards the end of the 11 season. So, I don't think it should be the 12 same problem next year if they are parking 13 there. 14 MEMBER KRIEGER: That was my question. 15 Thank you. 16 CHAIRPERSON GHANNAM: Anybody else 17 have any questions? Mr. Cassis? 18 MEMBER CASSIS: Good evening, Father. 19 FATHER ELMER: Good evening. 20 MEMBER CASSIS: How are you? 21 FATHER ELMER: I'm fine, thank you. 22 MEMBER CASSIS: Good. I would have 23 omitted to swearing you. There was no 24 reason for it. Anyhow, Father Elmer, first,
39 1 I will deal with the question of this lady 2 who is very distraught and there was another 3 objection. And probably there might be 4 others at Island Lake that are discomfort. 5 You just said you told the police too. Have 6 you taken any internal actions, instructions 7 or anything or maybe barriers for that 8 evening, or some sort of a physical kind of 9 an informative directions to prohibit some 10 of the stuff that is really working havoc 11 with this neighbor? 12 FATHER ELMER: First of all, the track 13 people that have been referred to have been 14 told not to run through Island Lake. And I 15 would like to learn or find out if any of 16 that is still happening. Any discomfort or 17 inconvenience that Catholic Central is 18 causing, I would welcome phone calls to my 19 office, and if you call the main school 20 number you can get me. And I would take 21 action on it immediately. 22 Up to now I have not done anything, 23 taken any positive effort to perhaps make 24 myself available to the community at Island
40 1 Lake. I certainly would be willing to do 2 that if they wanted to have a town meeting 3 or something like that, I would be very 4 happy to. Because we don't want to be bad 5 neighbors, that's for sure. 6 MEMBER CASSIS: You know, Father, 7 without me trying to tell you what to do, 8 but in cases sometimes like this, you may 9 appoint referees or you may appoint certain 10 faculty members to take watch or to be alert 11 to those things and put them in places where 12 -- I mean, there are ways of trying to deal 13 with the situation besides you being 14 informed. I mean, they can call you, they 15 can call the police, but how is the police 16 going to come there all night long? 17 FATHER ELMER: We have police there on 18 site that certainly could take it. And we 19 also have a team of dads that work every 20 game and they could certainly add another 21 couple of members that could monitor the 22 entrances to the events for those nights. 23 MEMBER CASSIS: Would you want to deal 24 with some of these people next door?
41 1 FATHER ELMER: Certainly, I would be 2 very happy to. 3 MEMBER CASSIS: And talk to them? 4 FATHER ELMER: Yes. 5 MEMBER CASSIS: The second question I 6 have, Father, is this. What is the urgency 7 of having that many signs? Why? I mean, 8 are you in need of more students? Are you 9 having difficulties with directions? What is 10 the urgency that you need to spend more 11 money and having this kind of precipitous 12 thing happening? 13 FATHER ELMER: It's not an urgency, I 14 have to admit that. But it's just good 15 business, first of all, to brag about your 16 own achievements and to announce the events 17 that you are trying to get as large a 18 population to them. Like the rummage sale, 19 for example, that we have every year, things 20 like that. Many of which help the community 21 as well. 22 So, no, I can't say that there is an 23 urgency to it. We don't have a full school, 24 but it's close. And the economic situation
42 1 that we're in today I think is such that we 2 don't know what the next couple of years are 3 going to hold. We are losing quite a few 4 students from the ninth to the tenth and 5 tenth to the eleventh. Our freshman classes 6 are continuing to be high. So that's where 7 the concern is. So, you do, and you don't 8 rest on your laurels either, if you are 9 doing well you want to keep improving. The 10 ship doesn't go forward, it starts to go 11 backwards. 12 MEMBER CASSIS: That's true. The third 13 thing I wanted to ask is, we asked you last 14 time you were here if you would put 15 something underneath the existing sign. 16 What have you thought about that? 17 FATHER ELMER: I had my architect look 18 at it. As a matter of fact he said he spent 19 several hours at it and said that there is 20 no way that they could do that and still 21 keep that sign presentable and having a look 22 of class to it. And I couldn't think of any 23 way to do it. 24 MEMBER CASSIS: Because Novi High
43 1 School they put their Novi High School there 2 and then they have their sign underneath. 3 FATHER ELMER: They have that moving 4 sign. But for the purposes of announcing 5 events or celebrating achievements, it just 6 wouldn't be enough space to do that. And 7 the location of it is not as noticeable 8 because it's not facing the street and the 9 traffic that's coming forward. But he did, 10 as I say, he made a good effort to make it 11 work and he just couldn't. 12 MEMBER CASSIS: Thank you, Father. 13 FATHER ELMER: Thank you. 14 MEMBER CASSIS: Thank you, Mr. 15 Chairman. 16 CHAIRPERSON GHANNAM: Anybody else 17 have any comments or questions? Actually I 18 have a few, Father, if you don't mind. 19 FATHER ELMER: Oh, sure. 20 CHAIRPERSON GHANNAM: The intent of 21 the new sign is not going to be for 22 directional purposes to direct people in and 23 out of that particular entrance? 24 FATHER ELMER: No.
44 1 CHAIRPERSON GHANNAM: It's simply to 2 announce student achievements and so forth? 3 FATHER ELMER: Yes. 4 CHAIRPERSON GHANNAM: You heard the 5 resident, her comments about issues with 6 traffic and so forth. How would you address 7 those concerns if this is simply for student 8 achievement? 9 FATHER ELMER: First of all, I would 10 welcome to have a meeting with that family. 11 But my effort right now would be, it won't 12 be that problem now until next fall. But at 13 that time or even before that, organize the 14 dads so that they will monitor those 15 entrances to Island Lake, and remind the 16 police or ask them if they would monitor the 17 parking there as well. 18 CHAIRPERSON GHANNAM: Currently that 19 south entrance, it's an entrance and exit, 20 correct? 21 FATHER ELMER: Yes. 22 CHAIRPERSON GHANNAM: Is there 23 anything there to identify it's an entrance 24 and exit to Catholic Central?
45 1 FATHER ELMER: No. Right now there is 2 not. 3 CHAIRPERSON GHANNAM: And just so I'm 4 clear, this is not going to be a digital 5 sign, correct? 6 FATHER ELMER: Correct. 7 CHAIRPERSON GHANNAM: It's simply 8 going to be a sign that you can change 9 messages and so forth? 10 FATHER ELMER: Yes. 11 CHAIRPERSON GHANNAM: And I also 12 noticed on your sketch here that this will 13 basically be seen as you travel south? 14 FATHER ELMER: Um-hum. 15 CHAIRPERSON GHANNAM: That's a yes? 16 FATHER ELMER: Yes. 17 CHAIRPERSON GHANNAM: As you are 18 coming north you would not be able to see 19 that angle of the sign? 20 FATHER ELMER: No. We figure that most 21 of the time during the year that traveling 22 north it would be dark for many of the 23 traffic that wouldn't see it anyway. 24 But traveling from the south they would be
46 1 seeing it mostly after work where the light 2 would still be there and they could read 3 the sign that way. And that's why it was 4 designed on that side of our south entrance 5 rather than on the other. 6 CHAIRPERSON GHANNAM: I don't have any 7 other questions, Father. Thank you. 8 Anybody else? Ms. Skelcy? 9 MEMBER SKELCY: Will the sign be 10 illuminated? 11 FATHER ELMER: No. 12 MEMBER SKELCY: Do you know how far it 13 would be from Island Lake Road? 14 FATHER ELMER: Oh, quite a distance. 15 From the entrance to Island Lake? 16 MEMBER SKELCY: Yes. 17 FATHER ELMER: Aren't there one or two 18 homes in between, I believe? So, it's not 19 right there. 20 MEMBER SKELCY: All right. Thank you. 21 FATHER ELMER: You're welcome. 22 CHAIRPERSON GHANNAM: Mr. Ibe? 23 MEMBER IBE: Mr. Chair, a real quick 24 question for Mr. Boulard there. The Father
47 1 just mentioned that there is no sign for the 2 south entrance telling you it's a place of 3 ingress and egress for Catholic Central. 4 Ordinarily assuming that they didn't have 5 the sign here, would they be allowed to have 6 any kind of sign there that say it's the 7 entrance to Catholic Central? Are they 8 allowed to have that? 9 MR. BOULARD: There are, the sign 10 ordinance does allow directional signs for 11 internal circulation and so on, they are 12 generally a maximum of three square feet and 13 those are like the ones that you would see 14 for restaurants that say enter or exit. 15 What I don't know is if those would be 16 applicable to this use. I would be happy to 17 try to track that down for you right now. 18 FATHER ELMER: I would be happy to 19 comply with anything that you would wish us 20 to have identifying Catholic Central. 21 MEMBER IBE: Just one moment, Father. 22 FATHER ELMER: Sure. 23 CHAIRPERSON GHANNAM: While he is 24 looking that up, Father, I had another
48 1 question. I remember the sign request last 2 year. That was at the north entrance, 3 correct? 4 FATHER ELMER: Yes. 5 CHAIRPERSON GHANNAM: The request at 6 that time was for a digital sign if I 7 recall? 8 FATHER ELMER: No. 9 CHAIRPERSON GHANNAM: It was not? 10 FATHER ELMER: No, it was the same 11 sign that's there now is exactly the same 12 one that we had requested for the north 13 entrance. 14 CHAIRPERSON GHANNAM: So, the one that 15 you are requesting now for the south 16 entrance that was the same request as the 17 north entrance last year? 18 FATHER ELMER: Yes. 19 CHAIRPERSON GHANNAM: I understand 20 now. 21 MEMBER IBE: Mr. Chair, while they are 22 looking may I ask the Father a question? 23 CHAIRPERSON GHANNAM: Please, go 24 ahead.
49 1 MEMBER IBE: Thank you, Mr. Chair. 2 Father, the south entrance as it's currently 3 right now, is that being used on a regular 4 basis by the students or faculty or parents 5 to go in and out of Catholic Central? 6 FATHER ELMER: On a minimal basis, 7 yes. I would say not even ten percent of 8 the traffic would be using it, but some of 9 them do. 10 MEMBER IBE: Do you have a higher 11 increase of traffic during the football 12 season for that south entrance as compared 13 to the regular, any other time of the year? 14 FATHER ELMER: Certainly at the night 15 of the games we do. Especially exiting. 16 The entrance is usually -- I believe the 17 dads even direct everybody to the north 18 entrance so the traffic flow would be kept, 19 and the parking, they could find the parking 20 more easily that way too. 21 MEMBER IBE: Do you envision that 22 perhaps placing this new sign that you are 23 going to have there, do you envision that 24 increasing the traffic flow of the use of
50 1 the south entrance? 2 FATHER ELMER: It might some. I'm not 3 sure that much because of the convenience of 4 using the north entrance because that's the 5 one that takes them right to the entrances 6 to the school. So, I would say it could be 7 some. I think if we put up a sign 8 identifying it as Catholic Central High 9 School that might increase it. But how 10 much, I couldn't, I couldn't say. 11 MEMBER IBE: Thank you, Father. 12 FATHER ELMER: You are welcome. 13 MEMBER KRIEGER: Could I followup? 14 CHAIRPERSON GHANNAM: Yes. 15 MEMBER KRIEGER: Also then for the 16 second sign on the south entrance, that 17 would be more then to advertise to the 18 community? Then if you had put up a sign 19 that said that we're going to have an event, 20 that would suit more at the primary entrance 21 then? 22 FATHER ELMER: The events that we 23 have, many of them are for the community. 24 There are some, though, that are just for
51 1 the Catholic Central family, they wouldn't 2 pertain. I'm not sure, is that the question 3 -- 4 MEMBER KRIEGER: What is the intent 5 then of the second sign? 6 FATHER ELMER: The intent would be to 7 celebrate our achievements to the community 8 at large and also to announce events that 9 pertain to the community. And also for our 10 own people as well. 11 CHAIRPERSON GHANNAM: Any update? 12 MR. BOULARD: I apologize. The 13 ordinance would allow at this entrance a, 14 basically a traffic control sign or a 15 directional sign of up to three square feet 16 and six feet in height located within the 17 setback area. But information naming or 18 describing the business which assume it's 19 for parking and driving information shall 20 occupy no more than 30 percent of the sign 21 area. So, this sign would not qualify. If 22 there was a smaller sign, for example, that 23 would say entrance Catholic Central High 24 School, something with a limited amount of
52 1 identification, basically for directional 2 purposes or people missing the entrance. 3 MS. KUDLA: More like in the form of a 4 street sign, if you're talking about a six 5 foot pole sign. 6 MEMBER IBE: Thank you so much. I 7 appreciate it. 8 CHAIRPERSON GHANNAM: Any other 9 questions or comments for the applicant? 10 MEMBER KRIEGER: For the City, I'm 11 sorry. 12 The high school on Ten Mile and Novi Road -- 13 I mean, Taft, I don't know, you probably 14 don't have that data. If the amount of 15 complaints from the residents regarding the 16 public high school? 17 MR. BOULARD: Your question is? 18 MEMBER KRIEGER: Kids with running 19 track on the sidewalks or streets, kids 20 going through the subdivision? 21 MR. BOULARD: I'm not aware if there 22 are or are not complaints of that type in 23 that area. The police might know or may 24 have some reports, but I don't have that
53 1 information. 2 MEMBER KRIEGER: Okay. 3 MEMBER CASSIS: Mr. Chair? 4 CHAIRPERSON GHANNAM: Yes, Mr. Cassis? 5 MEMBER CASSIS: Mr. Chairman, we are 6 really conflicted here and having problems. 7 I feel this in the air. Father, I would 8 like to see a different solution to your 9 dilemma. We seem to have a little bit of 10 hesitation here because we have some 11 objections from the neighbors. We see no 12 real -- you know, you come to the ZBA 13 because you have a certain problem or -- 14 what is the? 15 MEMBER IBE: (Unintelligible). 16 MEMBER CASSIS: Yeah, something that 17 is really having a problem with your 18 existence and so on and you need some 19 alleviation. I don't see the real 20 compelling problem here to put a large sign 21 like this. And this is a big sign. I mean, 22 we're talking about 48 square feet, maybe 4 23 feet by 12 feet on that -- is that right? 24 CHAIRPERSON GHANNAM: I think it's 8
54 1 by 3 isn't it? 2 MR. BOULARD: Yes, this whole sign is 3 24 square feet and 54 inches high. 4 MEMBER CASSIS: Yeah. I don't see the 5 hardship here that is really very compelling 6 here. We want to seek a solution for you, 7 Father. We have been communicating. And 8 unless I am totally wrong here, I mean, my 9 colleagues can speak. I don't know whether 10 you would want to have a smaller sign, 11 directional sign or you want to have at it 12 again to go into the north entrance and do 13 something there. See, the problem is that 14 putting a sign on the south entrance is 15 going to accelerate and add more trips 16 because people will say, oh, this is the 17 entrance to Catholic Central. And once they 18 start developing that habit, it's going to 19 start increasing from the 10% you are 20 talking about to maybe 40% or 50% and, 21 therefore, aggravate the situation to the 22 next door neighbors. 23 FATHER ELMER: Knowing our people that 24 won't happen because they know where the
55 1 entrance to the school is and it's the north 2 entrance. 3 MEMBER CASSIS: So, the thing is, we 4 have allowed schools to exist in residential 5 areas, this is our ordinance, so it creates 6 this problem situation where something like 7 this may arise. I'm just giving my little 8 bit of input here, not to try to obstruct 9 any progress towards something amicable for 10 you that you can live with and this Board 11 can live with. But what is the pleasure of 12 the Board? 13 FATHER ELMER: May I just say one 14 thing? 15 MEMBER CASSIS: Yes, Father. And you 16 know how much I have regard for you. It's 17 very tough to be going contrary to Father 18 Elmer. You know that. 19 FATHER ELMER: I understand. I am 20 just asking for the same. I believe that 21 Novi High School have the same reasons that 22 we would to have that second sign, the 23 moving sign as announcing events and 24 celebrating their achievements, and so
56 1 that's all I'm asking for is kind of equal 2 treatment. 3 MEMBER CASSIS: Thank you, Father. 4 FATHER ELMER: You're welcome. 5 CHAIRPERSON GHANNAM: I just have a 6 couple comments too. I tend to agree, it is 7 a difficult question. You have to meet a 8 standard by law for your variance to be 9 granted. A practical difficulty standard. 10 And the question becomes is your property 11 unique? Is it self created? Things like 12 that. To me what I guess is compelling, I 13 understand you want to advertise your 14 student achievements and upcoming events, I 15 think that's legitimate. Also, I think to 16 me your strongest argument is that the 17 entrance is 600 feet from the other 18 entrance. And you are right, there are 19 homes in front, for whatever reason they 20 remain there and you are far behind, it's 21 not visible from the street, your school and 22 so forth. You do have the one entrance at 23 the light and certainly that's your main 24 entrance. But if I had to weigh the
57 1 factors, I generally -- it would be 2 difficult, but I would tend to support your 3 request based on what you said tonight. So, 4 those are my comments. 5 Any other comments from the Board 6 members or any motions? And by way, Father, 7 just so you know, you understand you need 8 four of the five members tonight because we 9 only have five? I had mentioned at the 10 beginning you do have the option of moving 11 this to a different day if you choose, if 12 you want a full board or a different -- not 13 a different board, but with all seven 14 members present. 15 FATHER ELMER: I would have an 16 attorney here tonight too, but he couldn't 17 make it and he suggested that possibly under 18 circumstances like this that we ask that it 19 be tabled. 20 CHAIRPERSON GHANNAM: That's totally 21 your choice. And I understand you made your 22 presentation. You would have to represent it 23 and they would have to re-advertise it, I 24 believe.
58 1 MS. MARTIN: If you state an exact 2 date we do not have to re-advertise. 3 CHAIRPERSON GHANNAM: Okay. I don't 4 know what the vote would be if we took a 5 vote right now if we would reject or 6 approve, but what is your pleasure? 7 FATHER ELMER: My pleasure would be to 8 table it. 9 CHAIRPERSON GHANNAM: Do we have any 10 indication whether or not we will have a 11 full board next month? 12 MS. MARTIN: As far as I know we will. 13 CHAIRPERSON GHANNAM: Okay. 14 MEMBER CASSIS: Mr. Chair? 15 CHAIRPERSON GHANNAM: Yes, Mr. Cassis? 16 MEMBER CASSIS: Tabling just like that 17 and not giving Father directions I think 18 would be counter-productive. So, maybe we 19 should give Father some kind of a hint as to 20 what could be an acceptable thing for an 21 entire Board next time. We want to go in 22 that direction, Father. 23 We did have difficulty with the north 24 entrance last time of the second sign.
59 1 Faced with this situation that you brought 2 before us, I would think you probably want 3 to consider, take another look at the north 4 entrance second sign. What is the pleasure 5 of the Board? 6 CHAIRPERSON GHANNAM: This is his 7 application not mine. 8 MEMBER CASSIS: No, no. I mean, to 9 give him some sort of direction. 10 CHAIRPERSON GHANNAM: You have made 11 your comments. If you want to make more 12 comments please do that. Or if anybody else 13 certainly want to make a comment then I am 14 sure they can. Mr. Boulard, do you want to 15 make a comment? 16 MR. BOULARD: If I may. If there was 17 a -- for a sign to be considered at the 18 north entrance it would have to be 19 re-advertised, basically a separate 20 application. One suggestion that I -- one 21 thing I could just throw out is, sometimes 22 in the past where there is concerns of the 23 surrounding property owners, the Board if 24 there is opportunity while it's being
60 1 tabled, the Board has made suggestions that 2 the parties get together and perhaps discuss 3 some acceptable or more acceptable 4 alternatives. 5 MEMBER CASSIS: I am sure that would 6 be another solution. 7 CHAIRPERSON GHANNAM: That's certainly 8 something that you and your school and 9 faculty could potentially arrange. 10 FATHER ELMER: We certainly have gone 11 through this quite a bit, especially after 12 we were denied the north entrance. There 13 aren't many options as far as I can see that 14 we could come up with. 15 CHAIRPERSON GHANNAM: I would tend to 16 agree. Multiple signs at one entrance, you 17 were denied that and now you have an 18 entrance with no signage. 19 FATHER ELMER: And I must say that it 20 looks much better in the second entrance 21 than it did when we had it up for the first. 22 It was crowded there. 23 CHAIRPERSON GHANNAM: I understand. 24 Your preference is to adjourn this meeting
61 1 to another month? 2 FATHER ELMER: Well, my feeling is 3 that, yes. If we need four votes, I'm not 4 sure that we would... 5 CHAIRPERSON GHANNAM: Okay. Would 6 anybody like to make -- 7 MS. KUDLA: As far as looking at the 8 north entrance sign, again, if we are going 9 to re-notice it for the exact same sign, in 10 the circumstance where you were already 11 denied a variance request, in order to look 12 at the exact same variance request again, 13 you have the applicant having to show that 14 there is some kind of changed circumstance. 15 So, keeping that in mind either the proposal 16 would have to be a different proposal or the 17 circumstance would have to be changed in 18 order to bring it back before this Board. 19 CHAIRPERSON GHANNAM: You understand 20 that, Father? 21 FATHER ELMER: Yes. And I don't see 22 any justification on our part to ask for it 23 again. 24 CHAIRPERSON GHANNAM: I mean, this is
62 1 just simply one sign proposal at the south 2 entrance, that's all we're going to consider 3 for adjournment. 4 FATHER ELMER: Yes. 5 CHAIRPERSON GHANNAM: Anybody else 6 would like to make comments before we take a 7 motion? Ms. Krieger? 8 MEMBER KRIEGER: So, tabling in 9 regards of giving the opportunity for it to 10 have a full board, and then to have the 11 applicant and the homeowners association of 12 Island Lake or the parties maybe to 13 communicate with each other. 14 FATHER ELMER: Fine. 15 CHAIRPERSON GHANNAM: Any other 16 comments? 17 MS. KUDLA: The only thing we would 18 want to add is a specific date that it's 19 being tabled to. 20 CHAIRPERSON GHANNAM: Right. When is 21 the February meeting? 22 MS. MARTIN: February 9th. 23 CHAIRPERSON GHANNAM: Would you like 24 the February 9th meeting date or a later
63 1 date? 2 FATHER ELMER: No, I would prefer it 3 the sooner the better. 4 CHAIRPERSON GHANNAM: Okay. Can I get 5 a motion to table this matter until February 6 9th? 7 MEMBER IBE: Yes. Mr. Chair, may I? 8 CHAIRPERSON GHANNAM: Yes. 9 MEMBER IBE: Thank you, Mr. Chair. In 10 case number: 09-052, 27225 Wixom Road, 11 Catholic Central High School, I move that 12 based on the applicant's request that the 13 application be tabled to the February 9th, 14 2010 meeting. 15 CHAIRPERSON GHANNAM: Do I hear a 16 second? 17 MEMBER CASSIS: Second. 18 CHAIRPERSON GHANNAM: Any further 19 discussion? If you can take the roll, 20 please. 21 MS. MARTIN: Can I ask one question? 22 Is it coming back as submitted now? 23 MEMBER IBE: Correct. 24 CHAIRPERSON GHANNAM: It's the same
64 1 request. 2 MS. MARTIN: Okay. 3 CHAIRPERSON GHANNAM: Is that correct 4 for the motion maker? 5 MEMBER IBE: Yes, Mr. Chairman. Thank 6 you. 7 MS. MARTIN: Member Ibe? 8 MEMBER IBE: Yes. 9 MS. MARTIN: Member Cassis? 10 MEMBER CASSIS: Yes. 11 MS. MARTIN: Member Krieger? 12 MEMBER KRIEGER: Yes. 13 MS. MARTIN: Member Skelcy? 14 MEMBER SKELCY: Yes. 15 MS. MARTIN: Chairman Ghannam? 16 CHAIRPERSON GHANNAM: Yes. You are 17 adjourned until February 9th, and we will 18 see you then. 19 FATHER ELMER: Thank you very much. 20 CHAIRPERSON GHANNAM: Next case, case 21 number: 09-053 for 24099 Wintergreen 22 Circle, Giggle Gang. Nicole Karr of Giggle 23 Gang is requesting three variances to permit 24 the licensing of a group day care home
65 1 accommodating six to twelve children at her 2 residence located at 24099 Wintergreen 3 Circle. The petitioner is requesting waiver 4 of the required fenced play area, required 5 lot size and waiver of the request for 6 frontage on a major thoroughfare or section 7 line collector. The property is zoned R-1 8 and is located south of Ten Mile Road 9 between Beck and Taft Road. 10 Will the applicant please come 11 forward. 12 Please state your name and address. 13 MS. KARR: Hello, I'm Nicole Karr. 14 And my address is 24099 Wintergreen Circle. 15 CHAIRPERSON GHANNAM: If you can raise 16 your right hand and you have to be sworn in, 17 please. 18 MEMBER KRIEGER: In case number: 19 09-053 on 24099 Wintergreen Circle-Giggle 20 Gang, LLC, do you swear to tell the truth in 21 this case? 22 MS. KARR: Yes. 23 CHAIRPERSON GHANNAM: Go ahead, you 24 may proceed.
66 1 MS. KARR: I currently run a day care 2 in my home. I have lived in Wintergreen 3 Park for 12 years and have run the day care 4 for those 12 years. I have been licensed 5 for six children. And I currently would 6 like to move my license from six children 7 which is a family license to a group license 8 which is carrying up to 12 children. My 9 intentions are to care for approximately 10 eight children with two assistants. And in 11 order to do that I need to request variances 12 from you, the three variances. 13 Well, I guess I can explain my 14 business. 15 I operate the day care three days a week. 16 Monday, Tuesday, Thursday from 7:30 to 5:30. 17 I have been doing it for 12 years and we 18 have a great little program with a little 19 bit of a structure. Activity is circle 20 time, nap time. And everybody is very 21 friendly, kind of a close knit little 22 family. 23 I do need to seek three 24 variances. One is I do not have a fence
67 1 around my yard and that is mainly because my 2 neighborhood does not allow it. And 3 licensing does not require it. We have been 4 doing the daycare without it and we play in 5 the backyard and we have quite a bit of 6 landscape along the perimeter of our yard, 7 that's just how we've operated. 8 The next variance is my lot size is 9 only, I guess here it says approximately .34 10 acres rather than a half acre. So for 11 obvious reasons I need to ask for a variance 12 for that because I can't change that. 13 And the last variance is that my home 14 does not abut a major thoroway. My house, 15 my neighborhood is right off of Ten Mile 16 Road and my house is very easy to access. 17 We are about four houses in off of Ten Mile 18 Road in Wintergreen Park, so it's close to 19 Ten Mile, but not right on Ten Mile. So, 20 those are the variances I am requesting. 21 CHAIRPERSON GHANNAM: Thank you, 22 ma'am. 23 I'll ask the secretary to see if there is 24 any correspondence.
68 1 MEMBER KRIEGER: In case number: 2 09-053, 31 notices were mailed. One 3 returned. No responses. 4 CHAIRPERSON GHANNAM: I'll open it up 5 for public remarks on this particular case. 6 Is there anybody that would like to make any 7 comments on this case? 8 (No response.) 9 CHAIRPERSON GHANNAM: Seeing none, 10 I'll close the public remarks and ask the 11 City if they have any comments or issues? 12 MR. BOULARD: Just as a -- for our 13 information a group day care has a special 14 land use in this zoning district and the 15 special land use permit was granted by the 16 Planing Commission at a previous meeting 17 subject to the variances that are before 18 this Board. Kristen Kapelanski is here from 19 the Planing Commission. If you have any 20 questions I would defer to her. 21 CHAIRPERSON GHANNAM: If we can have 22 Kristen come up and explain the position of 23 the City. 24 MEMBER CASSIS: Mr. Chairman, while
69 1 she is coming up. I did hear this case on 2 the Planning Commission side. Can I still 3 hear it here? 4 MS. KUDLA: You should not hear it. 5 Right now we need to have a motion to 6 recuse you from this vote. 7 CHAIRPERSON GHANNAM: So, can I have a 8 motion to recuse Mr. Cassis? 9 MEMBER IBE: Mr. Chair -- I'm sorry, 10 go ahead. 11 MEMBER SKELCY: Will we still have a 12 quorum if he is recused? 13 MS. KUDLA: We don't have a use 14 variance, so we still have four votes. 15 MEMBER SKELCY: Okay. 16 CHAIRPERSON GHANNAM: Mr. Ibe, would 17 you like to make a motion? 18 MEMBER IBE: Yes, Mr. Chair. I'll 19 move that Mr. Cassis be recused from case 20 number: 09-053. 21 CHAIRPERSON GHANNAM: Second? 22 MEMBER SKELCY: Second. 23 CHAIRPERSON GHANNAM: All in favor? 24 BOARD MEMBERS: Aye.
70 1 CHAIRPERSON GHANNAM: All opposed? 2 Seeing none, Mr. Cassis, you are excused and 3 you can exit, please. 4 MEMBER CASSIS: Okay. 5 CHAIRPERSON GHANNAM: I'm sorry, 6 Kristen. 7 MS. KAPELANSKI: As Mr. Boulard 8 mentioned, this is a special land use in the 9 R-1 District. It did appear before the 10 Planing Commission. The R-1 District has 11 several conditions listed that are required 12 in order for a special land use permit to be 13 granted. Three of those conditions have not 14 been met by the applicant. One that was 15 mentioned was the fence. Staff does not 16 have any concerns related to the lack of a 17 fence. The applicant did mention they do 18 have significant landscape along the rear of 19 the yard. If I can zoom in. 20 The applicant has also agreed to put 21 in some additional landscaping in the side 22 yard for screening purposes. There are 23 evergreens here along the back of the rear 24 yard and they have agreed to landscape
71 1 minimal amounts in the side yard. So, the 2 staff does not have any issue with that. 3 As far as the size of the property, 4 the required half acre, this property is 5 approximately .34 acres. Considering the 6 fact the applicant is only proposing eight 7 children, staff doesn't have any concerns 8 regarding the amount of space for the 9 children to play on the outside. 10 Lastly, the condition regarding the 11 property abutting a major thoroughfare or 12 section line collector road, as the 13 applicant mentioned, they are quite close to 14 Ten Mile Road. You see Ten Mile Road right 15 up here. They are the fourth house in. I 16 think the intent of the ordinance with 17 regards to abutting a major thoroughfare or 18 section line collector road was to make sure 19 that you didn't have large amounts of 20 traffic winding through the neighborhood. 21 Given the fact that they're the fourth house 22 in, staff doesn't have any concerns related 23 to traffic as well. 24 I would be happy to answer any
72 1 questions. 2 CHAIRPERSON GHANNAM: I would think a 3 major thoroughfare would be like you are on 4 the other side of Ten Mile or adjacent to 5 Ten Mile, that would be a major 6 thoroughfare. Or would the main entrance to 7 the subdivision be considered a 8 thoroughfare? 9 MS. KAPELANSKI: The ordinance reads 10 that you either have to have access off a 11 major thoroughfare which I think is what you 12 are referring to, or you have to abut it. 13 So, for example, the houses right here where 14 the rear yard backs up to Ten Mile we still 15 consider it abutting to Ten Mile even though 16 the entrance is off a local collector 17 street. And the ordinance would permit the 18 entrance to be off of a local street. 19 CHAIRPERSON GHANNAM: Okay. Any other 20 questions for you? Ms. Krieger? 21 MEMBER KRIEGER: Yes. How is this 22 different than the case regarding the church 23 and having a fence? 24 MS. KAPELANSKI: It's very similar.
73 1 When you have a day care use, there does 2 have to be a fenced in area. Generally the 3 zoning ordinance require a fenced in area, 4 especially with the church day care use, 5 that was a significant more number of 6 children. The fenced in area is required by 7 the State when you get above twelve 8 children. So, the zoning ordinance tries to 9 be complimentary to the State requirements. 10 In this case it doesn't require a fenced in 11 area because it's in a home and it's only 12 twelve children. 13 CHAIRPERSON GHANNAM: Any other 14 questions? Okay, thank you. Ma'am, if you 15 can come forward. 16 Did the City have any other questions 17 or issues? 18 MS. KUDLA: We have none. 19 CHAIRPERSON GHANNAM: Okay, then I'll 20 open it up for the Board for discussion. 21 And actually before I do that, you 22 understand that since we have four members 23 left you have to have a unanimous vote? And 24 you are okay with that?
74 1 MS. KARR: Okay, yes. 2 CHAIRPERSON GHANNAM: Okay. Go ahead, 3 Ms. Skelcy. 4 MEMBER SKELCY: What are the ages of 5 the children that you plan to have at your 6 facility? 7 MS. KARR: Three months to age five, 8 until kindergarten. 9 MEMBER SKELCY: And what do you do to 10 make sure that the children don't run out 11 into the front yard and into the street 12 since there is no fence? 13 MS. KARR: We play in the backyard and 14 in 12 years I have never had any children 15 run away from me. Usually there is probably 16 at least two or three that are in strollers 17 or bouncy seats in the backyard with us and 18 we have two baby seats on our swing set and 19 we have a playhouse and a play structure and 20 teeter-totter and they just all stay right 21 in the backyard with us. 22 And as Kristen explained, our 23 backyard is all pines and then to get to the 24 front of our house you either have to go,
75 1 like from our play area you have to go 2 through, one side of our house it's quite a 3 long distance up the steps, and the other 4 side is a big hill, so we are pretty much 5 enclosed in between landscaping and the hill 6 and the steps. And the kids are little. I 7 mean, I guess little kids can be pretty 8 fast. 9 MEMBER SKELCY: They can. 10 MS. KARR: And for whatever reason the 11 State licensing does not require fences 12 unless you have a bigger day care center 13 with over 12 children. 14 MEMBER SKELCY: And you are certain 15 that you only going to have eight at any one 16 time? 17 MS. KARR: Well, less than 12. The 18 reason for me switching from a family 19 license to a group license is because I have 20 six children currently. But my issue comes 21 when I have a two or three-year-old and then 22 the mother has a baby and I don't have room 23 to take the infant because I already have 24 six children. I have a few moms that are
76 1 pregnant and expecting babies and I want to 2 be able to care for those babies. I already 3 have assistants that are willing to work 4 with me. I do think eight or nine would be 5 perfect for my home. I am not looking to do 6 a big day care. And I'm only three days a 7 week. 8 MEMBER SKELCY: Okay, thank you. 9 CHAIRPERSON GHANNAM: Any other 10 questions? Mr. Ibe? 11 MEMBER IBE: Thank you, Mr. Chair. 12 How many assistants do you currently have? 13 MS. KARR: Definitely one has to work 14 with me at all times and there will be two 15 girls. One will be with me all times 16 probably alternating, one main assistant, 17 and then another one as a backup in case one 18 of us cannot be available. But they have to 19 be certified and go through clearance, 20 background checks. There is a big list with 21 State licensing for myself and assistant 22 caregivers. 23 MEMBER IBE: So, is it fair to say 24 that at all times there will be at least two
77 1 of you? 2 MS. KARR: There has to be. If there 3 are more than six kids there has to be two 4 adults. 5 MEMBER IBE: And when the kids our 6 outside what does the State licensing 7 require? How many adult supervision per 8 children are out there? 9 MS. KARR: There has to be both of us 10 outside if there is more than six. But like 11 in the winter if one of us would like to 12 take a group of them outside and one of us 13 would like to stay inside with the infants, 14 we can do that and split the group evenly. 15 Like four go outside with one adult and four 16 stay inside with the younger ones we can do 17 that too. 18 MEMBER IBE: So, as long as you have 19 less than six, one adult? 20 MS. KARR: Um-hum. 21 MEMBER IBE: So, if it is above six 22 you have to have two adults? 23 MS. KARR: Yes. I'm under six with one 24 adult and that's how I have been running the
78 1 day care for all these years. But like I 2 said, there are instances where I would like 3 to be able to go over six, and I have an 4 assistant that's more than willing to work 5 with me at all times. 6 MEMBER IBE: What about your 7 neighbors, do they have any problems with 8 any number of -- 9 MS. KARR: No. 10 MEMBER IBE: Are they aware that you 11 are going to be increasing the -- 12 MS. KARR: Yes, they have all received 13 letters from the City, at least for the 14 first meeting that I had, and I'm not sure 15 about this meeting, but all of them received 16 notices and were very supportive to me. In 17 fact, many of the neighbors have come to my 18 day care in the past over the years. And 19 the neighbors on both sides, their kids are 20 often playing with us and visiting with us 21 during the day care and they are very 22 supportive. And we are very considerate too 23 of our neighbors. We are very, very 24 conscious of that. And in the evenings when
79 1 the day care is all over we put everything 2 away. 3 Our kids are little, they are not 4 super loud. They are not any louder than 5 our neighbor boys playing hockey with all of 6 their friends, so we try to be very 7 considerate with the neighbors. 8 MEMBER IBE: Thank you. Thank you, 9 Mr. Chair. 10 CHAIRPERSON GHANNAM: Any other 11 questions? Yes, Ms. Krieger? 12 MEMBER KRIEGER: So, for the 13 assistants they fill out the State 14 requirements and they give them to you or 15 you all give to the State like infant CPR? 16 MS. KARR: They have to have their CPR 17 and their first aid and there is a lot of 18 training, infant sleep training. I have to 19 have records on file for me when my 20 licensing agent comes to my house, but the 21 files all have to be turned into the State. 22 And then there are also, they have to be 23 fingerprinted and have a TB test and medical 24 clearance from the doctors.
80 1 They are pretty strict on all of 2 those type of records for myself and for any 3 assistants that are working with me. 4 MEMBER KRIEGER: Do the neighbors, 5 does anybody have a dog that's ever come 6 running into your yard? 7 MS. KARR: Our neighbor does have a 8 dog, but it's an invisible fence. They do 9 have an invisible fence. We have never had 10 any problems with the dog. 11 MEMBER KRIEGER: Okay, thank you. 12 CHAIRPERSON GHANNAM: Actually you 13 have answered all my questions, ma'am, and I 14 have no problem supporting it. I usually 15 have more than six kids at my house at any 16 time, so with all my kids and their friends, 17 so I think it's a great idea and I have no 18 problem with it. 19 Any other questions or concerns? Or 20 can I hear a motion? Ms. Skelcy? 21 MEMBER SKELCY: In the case of 09-053, 22 24099 Wintergreen Circle, the Giggle Gang, I 23 propose that we approve the three variances 24 requested which is the waiver of a fenced in
81 1 play area. The waiver of the minimum parcel 2 size. A waiver of the fact that it does not 3 abut a major thoroughfare. And I recommend 4 it because the setback, frontage, height, 5 bulk, density requirements will unreasonably 6 prevent the use of the property for the 7 permitted purpose. The variance will 8 provide substantial justice to the 9 petitioner and surrounding property owners 10 in the zoning district. 11 There are unique circumstances at the 12 property. The problem is not self created. 13 There is adequate light and air provided to 14 adjacent properties. There is no increase 15 of fire danger or public safety. Property 16 values will not be diminished within the 17 surrounding area. And the spirit of the 18 zoning ordinance is observed. 19 CHAIRPERSON GHANNAM: I would just 20 have one friendly amendment if we can agree 21 to grant these variances so long as this 22 petitioner owns the home and is running this 23 day care. If that's acceptable? 24 MEMBER SKELCY: Yes.
82 1 CHAIRPERSON GHANNAM: Any further 2 question? Any second? 3 MEMBER IBE: Yes, I'll second that. 4 CHAIRPERSON GHANNAM: You can call the 5 roll, Ms. Martin. 6 MS. MARTIN: Member Ibe? 7 MEMBER IBE: Yes. 8 MS. MARTIN: Member Krieger? 9 MEMBER KRIEGER: Yes. 10 MS. MARTIN: Member Skelcy? 11 MEMBER SKELCY: Yes. 12 MS. MARTIN: Chairman Ghannam? 13 CHAIRPERSON GHANNAM: Yes. 14 Congratulations, ma'am. 15 MS. KARR: Thank you. 16 CHAIRPERSON GHANNAM: Good luck to 17 you. Mr. Cassis, you are welcomed back in. 18 For the next case, case number: 19 09-054, 26054 Novi Road Bagger Dave's. The 20 petitioner is requesting a revised variance 21 to allow installation of one additional 48 22 square foot wall sign on the west elevation 23 of the multi tenant building located at 24 26054 Novi Road for Bagger Dave's. The
83 1 property is zoned TC and located north of 2 Grand River and east of Novi Road. 3 Are you the petitioner? 4 MR. KRIEGER: I am. 5 CHAIRPERSON GHANNAM: State your name 6 and address, please. 7 MR. KRIEGER: My name is Jason Krieger 8 with Krieger Associates. The address is 9 1412 East Eleven Mile Royal Oak, Michigan 10 48067. 11 CHAIRPERSON GHANNAM: If you could 12 raise your hand and be sworn in if you're 13 not an attorney. 14 MEMBER KRIEGER: In case number: 15 09-054, 26054 Novi Road for Bagger Dave's do 16 you swear to tell the truth in this case? 17 MR. KRIEGER: I do. 18 CHAIRPERSON GHANNAM: Go ahead and 19 proceed, please. 20 MR. KRIEGER: We were here a month or 21 so ago, a few months ago and we were 22 previously granted a variance for a sign on 23 Novi Road. Where originally a sign was not 24 allowed we were given that variance for a 7
84 1 foot diameter sign which is 38.4 square 2 feet. After the variance was granted Bagger 3 Dave's changed their menu to include 4 breakfast. So, that made us go back and 5 say, okay, we need to advertise breakfast in 6 this restaurant or else it will be for 7 naught. 8 So, we're before you looking for a 9 revised variance and we have a proposal 10 here. And our proposal we feel is thought 11 out and just. The initial variance was for 12 38.4 square feet and what we are proposing 13 is a round sign that is 30.7 with a 14 rectangular serving breakfast sign below 15 which is 7.3. Together those will be 38 16 square feet which would be less than the 17 previous variance. But because of the 18 complex shape we have to calculate the 19 square footage like a rectangle whereas 20 before we had the diameter, now we have to 21 calculate the entire rectangle, the entire 22 shape. Keeping in mind that up to 10 square 23 feet would be brick. That would be the area 24 right here that is not signage at all.
85 1 So, that's our proposal. We do have 2 the mock-up on the building. To me it 3 looks, the circle is smaller, but I still 4 think that it's visually appealing. It's 5 legible which is important. The letters 6 serving breakfast are really only about 7 eight to nine inches tall, so there is 8 concern about drivers going by, so we made 9 sure that we thought carefully about it. We 10 feel we made the sign small as we can. 11 Again, we're below the previous variance but 12 at the same time it's lighter and it works 13 for the restaurant. 14 CHAIRPERSON GHANNAM: Thank you. 15 Any correspondence from the Secretary? 16 MEMBER KRIEGER: In case number: 17 09-054, 77 notices were mailed. Five 18 returned. No responses. 19 CHAIRPERSON GHANNAM: I'll open it up 20 for public remarks. At this time if there 21 is anybody from the public that would like 22 to make a comment on this specific case? 23 (No response.) 24 CHAIRPERSON GHANNAM: Seeing none,
86 1 we'll close the public remark section and 2 ask any questions of the City if they have 3 any. 4 MR. BOULARD: Thank you. No 5 additional comments beyond what are in the 6 staff report. I would be happy to answer 7 any questions. 8 CHAIRPERSON GHANNAM: I will open it 9 up for the Board for any questions. While 10 you all are thinking I will make my 11 comments. First of all, I have no problem 12 with this. I understand that this is a 13 change in I presume corporate strategy in 14 terms of serving breakfast and so forth. I 15 think this still fits within the spirit of 16 what we previously granted, so I really have 17 no problem with this. 18 Any other questions or comments? Ms. 19 Krieger? 20 MEMBER KRIEGER: I drove by and I like 21 the new sign. That it's proportional with 22 the building and with the neighbors. And it 23 also reminds me of the Novi sign, the circle 24 inside the square. And I was wondering,
87 1 though, if there was an additional sign, if 2 you wanted one on the west elevation, that 3 you also wanted one on the east? Or do you 4 not on that side? 5 MR. KRIEGER: East would be the 6 parking lot side, correct? 7 MEMBER KRIEGER: Correct. 8 MR. KRIEGER: There is one on the 9 parking lot side. I don't know if it's up 10 yet, but it will comply with the ordinance, 11 so we're not seeking a variance for that. 12 MEMBER KRIEGER: Okay. 13 CHAIRPERSON GHANNAM: Ms. Skelcy? 14 MEMBER SKELCY: What are you going to 15 do if you stop serving breakfast? 16 MR. KRIEGER: Ask the owner, he is 17 right here. We will probably take it down. 18 I think it's technically two separate signs. 19 MEMBER SKELCY: Okay. I just know 20 about that, I remember years ago Wendy's was 21 doing breakfast and then stopping. 22 MR. ANSLEY: Well, yeah -- 23 MEMBER GHANNAM: Hold on, sir, if you 24 are going to speak you need to be sworn by
88 1 our secretary if you are not an attorney. 2 MR. ANSLEY: My name is Michael 3 Ansley, 21751 West Eleven Mile Road, Suite 4 208, Southfield, Michigan. 5 MEMBER KRIEGER: So, in case number: 6 09-054 for 26054 Novi Road, Bagger Dave's, 7 do you swear to tell the truth? 8 MR. ANSLEY: Yes. 9 MEMBER KRIEGER: Thank you. 10 CHAIRPERSON GHANNAM: Proceed. 11 MR. ANSLEY: We don't have any plans 12 to stop serving breakfast. It's a very 13 unique concept that we're coming up with. 14 We're a full service restaurant so it's not 15 quite the same as Wendy's. But if we did I 16 guess we would have to come up with 17 something else to go into the serving 18 breakfast square. Something that would 19 represent our menu. But we have no plans. 20 Actually it's taken us about a year to 21 come up with this menu. We had to go back 22 to Simon Properties and give up our 23 exclusive on the property to allow us to 24 serve breakfast, which has been rather
89 1 interesting, but they did sign off on it. 2 It's going to be build your own 3 breakfast sandwich which we don't know that 4 anybody allows you to do that. So, you can 5 come in and pick from a variety of items and 6 build your own sandwich. We are using a lot 7 of Michigan products, Michigan coffees, 8 premium coffees. We're not going to do the 9 lattes and things like that, but it's 10 similar to the Einstein format where you go 11 in and there will be flavors and you go 12 serve it yourself as far as the coffee goes. 13 But, yeah, we're real excited about 14 it. 15 CHAIRPERSON GHANNAM: Anybody else 16 have any questions? Mr. Cassis? 17 MEMBER CASSIS: Yes. Is this -- to 18 our City attorney, is this one sign or two 19 signs? 20 MS. KUDLA: It would depend how they 21 are attaching it. But the intent is for it 22 to be one sign. 23 It was measured by the Community Development 24 Department as one sign.
90 1 MEMBER CASSIS: I'm not having 2 problems with the measurement. I am having 3 problems with two individual signs 4 separated. 5 MS. KUDLA: That was their proposal. 6 There is a way they do a size determination 7 and they are attaching it as one single 8 sign. I suppose if you -- 9 MEMBER CASSIS: I mean, I would 10 probably be okay and I would vote for two 11 signs, but, I mean, for the sake of 12 consideration of this application it would 13 seem to me that these are two signs, not 14 just one sign. 15 CHAIRPERSON GHANNAM: Let me ask you a 16 question. Are these two pieces connected? 17 MR. KRIEGER: I think that technically 18 they are. Actually when they go up there 19 are connected, it's not two individual 20 boxes. 21 CHAIRPERSON GHANNAM: It's an 22 illuminated sign, right? 23 MR. KRIEGER: It's a back lit 24 illuminated sign.
91 1 CHAIRPERSON GHANNAM: Both of them are 2 provided or supplied by the same power 3 source, I presume? 4 MR. KRIEGER: Correct. 5 MEMBER CASSIS: Maybe my eyes aren't 6 serving me. I don't know. 7 CHAIRPERSON GHANNAM: When it's 8 installed it's installed in one piece, is it 9 not? 10 MR. KRIEGER: I believe so, yes. Our 11 understanding is that it's one sign. It's 12 not two separate signs. 13 CHAIRPERSON GHANNAM: Okay. Mr. 14 Boulard? 15 MR. BOULARD: Typically where signs 16 are in this close proximity, the Community 17 Development Department and our folks that 18 look at these would consider this one sign. 19 It's actually worse for the applicant 20 because the space in between. The other way 21 to think of it is if we have a sign that's 22 separate letters that is this far apart that 23 are attached, we would draw a box around all 24 of them. So, in a sense I think it would be
92 1 consistent with past practice since it's one 2 sign and it's actually worse for the 3 applicant in terms of the size. 4 CHAIRPERSON GHANNAM: Any other 5 questions? 6 MEMBER CASSIS: No. Our Chairman here 7 seems to go along with it, fine. I mean, I 8 have no objection. I would vote for this 9 thing. My problem was considering that's 10 one sign when there are two unattached 11 things. That's all. But if you say it's 12 past practice. 13 MS. KUDLA: For the intent for it to 14 be one sign in past practice, in my opinion, 15 from a legal opinion that's fine to consider 16 it as one single sign. 17 MEMBER CASSIS: Fine. I'm okay with 18 that. 19 MS. KUDLA: From a practical 20 perspective the bottom sign by itself 21 wouldn't make any sense. 22 MEMBER CASSIS: Thank you, Mr. 23 Chairman. 24 CHAIRPERSON GHANNAM: Any other
93 1 questions or discussion? Then I'll wait for 2 a motion. Someone have a motion, please? 3 MEMBER IBE: Mr. Chair, I think I will 4 go ahead. 5 CHAIRPERSON GHANNAM: Thank you, Mr. 6 Ibe. 7 MEMBER IBE: Thank you. Mr. Chair, in 8 case number: 09-054 for 26054 Novi Road, 9 Bagger Dave's, I move that we grant the 10 petitioner's request for a revised variance 11 to allow the installation of one additional 12 48 square foot wall sign on the west 13 elevation of the multi tenant building 14 located at 26054 Novi Road for the reasons 15 that the request is based on circumstances 16 or features that are exceptional and unique 17 to the property and do not result from 18 conditions that exist generally in the City. 19 And that the problem is not self created. 20 And that failure to grant relief will 21 unreasonably prevent or limit the use of the 22 property and will result in substantially 23 more than a mere inconvenience to achieve a 24 higher economic financial return.
94 1 That the grant of relief will not 2 result in the use of structure that is 3 incompatible with or unreasonably interferes 4 with adjacent or surrounding properties. And 5 that granting this request is consistent 6 with the spirit of the ordinance. 7 MEMBER KRIEGER: Second. 8 CHAIRPERSON GHANNAM: Any further 9 discussion? Ms. Martin, can you call the 10 roll? 11 MS. MARTIN: Member Ibe? 12 MEMBER IBE: Yes. 13 MS. MARTIN: Member Cassis? 14 MEMBER CASSIS: Yes. 15 MS. MARTIN: Member Krieger? 16 MEMBER KRIEGER: Yes. 17 MS. MARTIN: Member Skelcy? 18 MEMBER SKELCY: Yes. 19 MS. MARTIN: Chairman Ghannam? 20 CHAIRPERSON GHANNAM: Yes. 21 Congratulations. 22 MR. KRIEGER: Thank you. 23 CHAIRPERSON GHANNAM: Any other issues 24 we need to cover before we move to adjourn?
95 1 MS. KUDLA: Nothing else on the 2 agenda. 3 CHAIRPERSON GHANNAM: Okay, can I hear 4 a motion to adjourn? 5 MEMBER KRIEGER: Before that, for 6 other matters, if there are any other public 7 remarks? 8 CHAIRPERSON GHANNAM: Is there any 9 other public -- well, wait. 10 MEMBER KRIEGER: Public audience 11 participation. 12 MEMBER SKELCY: I believe we did that 13 at the beginning. 14 CHAIRPERSON GHANNAM: Yeah, we opened 15 up public remarks -- 16 MEMBER KRIEGER: A complimentary one 17 at the end then like at the Council meeting? 18 If the people in the audience if there is 19 anybody that had any comments before we 20 adjourn. 21 CHAIRPERSON GHANNAM: You mean on 22 matters outside of what we already went 23 over? 24 MEMBER KRIEGER: Yes.
96 1 CHAIRPERSON GHANNAM: We usually don't 2 do that, do we? 3 MS. KUDLA: No. 4 CHAIRPERSON GHANNAM: We have done 5 that at the beginning, open it up to public 6 remarks unrelated, and then each case have 7 their own public remarks section. So, I 8 will go ahead and conclude. Is there any -- 9 MEMBER KRIEGER: Motion to adjourn 10 then. 11 MEMBER SKELCY: Second. 12 CHAIRPERSON GHANNAM: All in favor say 13 aye? 14 BOARD MEMBERS: Aye. 15 CHAIRPERSON GHANNAM: All opposed? 16 Seeing none, the meeting is adjourned. 17 (The meeting was adjourned at 18 8:33 p.m.) 19 20 21 22 23 24
97 1 C E R T I F I C A T E 2 3 4 5 I, Mona L. Talton, do hereby certify 6 that I have recorded stenographically the 7 proceedings had and testimony taken in the 8 above-entitled matter at the time and place 9 hereinbefore set forth, and I do further 10 certify that the foregoing transcript, 11 consisting of (80) typewritten pages, is a 12 true and correct transcript of my said 13 stenographic notes. 14 15 16 17 18 19 _____________________________ 20 Mona L. Talton, 21 Certified Shorthand Reporter 22 23 24 January 15, 2010
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