| View Agenda for this meeting View Action Summary for this meeting REGULAR MEETING - ZONING BOARD OF APPEALS Proceedings had and testimony taken in the matters of the ZONING BOARD OF APPEALS at City of Novi 45175 West Ten Mile Road, Novi, Michigan, on Tuesday, September 7, 2004. B_O_A_R_D__M_E_M_B_E_R_S_ ALSO PRESENT: REPORTED BY: 1 Novi, Michigan 2 Tuesday, September 7, 2004 3 At 7:30 p.m. 4 - - - - - - 5 MEMBER GRONACHAN: It is 7:31 and I would like to now call the Zoning Board of Appeals meeting back into session. For those of you who missed it, we started the meeting early, because the Zoning Board was in closed session. So we will, at this point, start with our rules of conduct. I will ask everyone to please notice on Their agenda this evening, there’s a list of rules of 13 conduct. Please review that before approaching the 14 podium. 15 Also, the Zoning Board of Appeals is a 16 hearing board, empowered by the Novi City Charter to 17 hear appeals seeking variances for the application of 18 the Novi Zoning Ordinances. It takes at least a vote 19 of four members to approve a variance, and a vote of 20 the majority of the members present to deny a request. 21 This evening, we have four members. 22 Anyone at this time that wishes to have 23 their case tabled, in lieu of next month when we have 24 a full board, you can approach the podium at this
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1 time. Anyone in the audience that wishes to do that? 2 Seeing none, we had August Minutes in 3 the meeting. Are there any changes or admissions to 4 the Minutes from last month? 5 MEMBER FISCHER: On page 117 line ten 6 -- 7 MEMBER GRONACHAN: Member Fischer, I'm 8 sorry, go ahead. 9 MEMBER FISCHER: I'm sorry. 10 I'm not sure how it should be, but my 11 last name is spelled incorrectly. I just wanted to 12 clarify that. Just because also the City Attorney is 13 Fisher, without the C. 14 MEMBER GRONACHAN: Okay. 15 Just for the record, it's F-i-s-c-h-e- 16 r. 17 We'll make a note to correct that. 18 Thank you. 19 Any other additions or changes? 20 Seeing none, all those in favor of the 21 August Minutes, please say aye? 22 BOARD MEMBERS: Aye. 23 MEMBER GRONACHAN: Any opposed? 24 None.
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1 At this point we would like to open the 2 meeting to anyone in the audience that wishes to make 3 comment to the Board in regards to a case or an issue 4 -- other than what's being presented in front of the 5 Zoning Board this evening -- is there anyone in the 6 audience that wishes to approach the Board at this 7 time in regards to a matter that is not on the agenda? 8 Okay. 9 Seeing none, we'll go ahead and call 10 our first case, case number, 04-075 filed by Steven 11 O'Guin of Westwind Companies, LLC, for new 12 construction at 25910 Strath Haven Drive, lot 96, in 13 Pioneer Meadows Subdivision. 14 Board Members, you will remember that 15 this case was tabled from last month. 16 And we have in front of us? 17 MR. O'GUIN: Steve O'Guin, Westwind 18 Companies. 19 MEMBER GRONACHAN: Mr. O'Guin, you were 20 sworn in last month -- 21 MR. O'GUIN: Yes. 22 MEMBER GRONACHAN: -- and that will 23 continue on to this month. 24 MR. O'GUIN: Okay.
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1 MEMBER GRONACHAN: And if you want to 2 bring us up to date on what happened since last month, 3 we're ready to hear you. 4 MR. O'GUIN: We submitted a new plot 5 plan. We resubmitted a new neighborhood association 6 approval. Mr. Greg Nelson was here last month. He's 7 the architectural review board of the neighborhood 8 association. We've ironed out our differences. 9 But on this I notice that it's the same 10 variance as we did last month, and this isn't correct. 11 We're applying for, if you look on page two to the 12 proposed front yard setback, 35 feet. We changed that 13 to 40 feet; so we want a five foot variance; and 14 number two on that required rear yard setback is going 15 to be 41 feet -- or the proposed rear yard setback to 16 41 feet. These figures are the same as last month, 17 which we tabled. 18 MEMBER GRONACHAN: I'm sorry. 19 And so then the second variance request 20 that you're requesting is five feet, correct? 21 MR. O'GUIN: Is nine feet. 22 MEMBER GRONACHAN: Nine feet. 23 MR. O'GUIN: The first one is five 24 feet.
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1 MEMBER GRONACHAN: Okay. 2 MR. O'GUIN; The other two side yard 3 setbacks are the same. The variances are the same as 4 proposed. 5 MEMBER GRONACHAN: Just one moment. 6 Don, can you check on how it was 7 advertised? 8 MR. SAVEN: We're checking on that now. 9 MEMBER GRONACHAN: Okay. 10 MR. O'GUIN: If you want to approve 11 that one, that's fine, too, because it's the one we 12 tabled. 13 MEMBER GRONACHAN: Do you want to make 14 that on the record, Denise? 15 DENISE ANDERSON: The copy you received 16 in the mail was correct, wasn't it? 17 MR. O'GUIN: Yes, it was correct. 18 DENISE ANDERSON: The one that was sent 19 out to all of the property owners was correct. I just 20 copied this from last month. 21 MR. O'GUIN: But that was -- 22 DENISE ANDERSON: Made a mistake, okay? 23 MEMBER GRONACHAN: So just so the 24 record shows, the advertising for the changes in the
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1 variances were correct. 2 MR. O'GUIN: Yes. 3 MEMBER GRONACHAN: It's just the 4 agenda. Plus, our cases show the correct 5 measurements. 6 Okay. You can go ahead. 7 I'm sorry. Is there anything else? 8 MR. O'GUIN: No, that's it. 9 MEMBER GRONACHAN: Okay. 10 Thank you very much. 11 Is there anyone in the audience that 12 wishes to make comment in regards to this case? 13 Seeing none, there were 35 notices 14 mailed; one approval, no objections, and two letters 15 returned. 16 The approval was, in fact, from the 17 Pioneer Meadows Subdivision with the new changes; and 18 they have it -- they have the correct five feet and 19 nine feet for the front, too. 20 Building Department? 21 MR. SAVEN: If it's the Board's desire, 22 I would be hopeful that if a Motion is granted for the 23 approval, I would ask that it be based upon the 24 information that went out to the public.
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1 MEMBER GRONACHAN: Okay. 2 Thank you. 3 Board Members? 4 Member Canup? 5 MEMBER CANUP: I guess the only 6 question I have is on the front yard setback, the 7 request for that. 8 Does the house line up, the new home, 9 line up with the house directly to the south of it? 10 MR. O'GUIN: Yes. 11 MEMBER CANUP: In other words, the 12 setbacks would be the same. 13 MR. O'GUIN: There's a vacant lot 14 directly to the south. Mr. Nelson lives two lots 15 down. 16 MEMBER CANUP: Right. 17 MR. O'GUIN: There is the reason he 18 requested a 40 foot setback so we'll line up with his 19 house. 20 MEMBER CANUP: You do line up with the 21 Nelson's house. 22 MR. O'GUIN: Yes. 23 MEMBER CANUP: I guess in light of 24 that, in looking at the situation of the zoning there,
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1 I guess it doesn't really reflect the trueness of the 2 subdivision. However, it's zoned that, so that's what 3 we have to look at. 4 I don't see where there's a problem, 5 and I think that probably every lot in there is going 6 to come before us eventually. So with that, I would 7 make a Motion -- if that's fine with everybody -- in 8 case number, 04-075 that we grant the variances as 9 requested, due to the uniqueness of the zoning of the 10 property. 11 MEMBER BAUER: Second. 12 MEMBER GRONACHAN: It's been moved and 13 seconded. 14 Member Fischer? 15 MEMBER FISCHER: As requested and as 16 noticed. 17 MEMBER CANUP: Yes. 18 MEMBER FISCHER: Correct? 19 MEMBER CANUP: Yes. 20 MEMBER GRONACHAN: Is there any further 21 discussion? 22 None? 23 Denise, would you please call the roll. 24 DENISE ANDERSON: Member Canup?
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1 MEMBER CANUP: Yes. 2 DENISE ANDERSON: Member Bauer? 3 MEMBER BAUER: Yes. 4 DENISE ANDERSON: Member Fischer? 5 MEMBER FISCHER: Aye. 6 DENISE ANDERSON: Member Gronachan? 7 MEMBER GRONACHAN: Yes. 8 DENISE ANDERSON: Motion passes four to 9 zero. 10 MEMBER GRONACHAN: Your variances have 11 been granted. Good luck to you. 12 MR. O'GUIN: Thank you. 13 What are the chances of getting a 14 building permit tonight? 15 MEMBER GRONACHAN: You have to go and 16 see the Building Department. 17 Slim and none. 18 19 Okay. Let's call our next case, case 20 number 04-079, filed by Michael Versaci for the Baja 21 Fresh Mexican Grill restaurant at 43271 Crescent 22 Boulevard in the Novi Town Center. 23 Good evening. 24 And you are?
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1 MS. CASSADA: I'm Alaina Cassada. I'm 2 in the marketing department of Baja Fresh. 3 MEMBER GRONACHAN: Okay. 4 Would you please raise your right hand 5 to be sworn in by our secretary. 6 MEMBER BAUER: Do you solemnly swear or 7 affirm to tell the truth regarding case 04-079? 8 MS. CASSADA: Yes, I do. 9 MEMBER BAUER: Thank you. 10 Go ahead. 11 MEMBER GRONACHAN: Go ahead. 12 MS. CASSADA: It's just a request to 13 extend the furniture out in front of the -- the patio 14 furniture, have it for another three years; 23 seats 15 and seven tables, for eating purposes. 16 MEMBER GRONACHAN: Okay. 17 Is there anyone in the audience that 18 wishes to make comment in regards to this case? 19 Seeing none. 20 Building Department? 21 MR. SAVEN: I'll just point out this 22 case was before the Building Department earlier on a 23 temporary use permit on case, 03-024. And based upon 24 the fact that they're looking to extent the time. We
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1 no longer do this, I'm sorry. Therefore, that's why 2 they're here before us. 3 We haven't had any problems regarding 4 this particular matter. They've always kept it neat 5 and clean and in an orderly fashion at all times. 6 MEMBER GRONACHAN: Okay, great. 7 Member Canup? 8 MEMBER CANUP: I guess the only 9 question I have is do we have anything in writing from 10 the owners of the center? 11 MR. SAVEN: I do believe so. 12 DENISE ANDERSON: Yes. 13 MR. SAVEN: It should be in your packet 14 from James Klear(ph), property manager, that 15 references the temporary use permit approval. 16 MEMBER CANUP: Okay. 17 MEMBER GRONACHAN: I did slip here. 18 There were 81 notices sent; no 19 approvals, no objections, and six letters were 20 returned. 21 That might have helped Member Canup. 22 Member Fischer? 23 MEMBER FISCHER: My only question was 24 about the -- if they'd had any problems. And given
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1 that they haven't, and the Building Department can no 2 longer grant this, I'm willing to support it; and 3 would be willing to make a Motion, should there be no 4 more discussion. 5 I move that we grant the use variance 6 as requested in case number, 04-079 for Baja Fresh due 7 to the fact that the past performance of the 8 Petitioner. There's no history of problems; 9 therefore, not creating any environmental or public 10 safety problem. 11 MEMBER BAUER: Three -- 12 MEMBER FISCHER: For three years. 13 MEMBER BAUER: Second. 14 MEMBER GRONACHAN: Okay. 15 It's been moved and seconded. 16 Any further discussion in regards to 17 the Motion? 18 Seeing none, Denise, would you please 19 call the roll. 20 DENISE ANDERSON: Member Fischer? 21 MEMBER FISCHER: Aye. 22 DENISE ANDERSON: Member Bauer? 23 MEMBER BAUER: Yes. 24 DENISE ANDERSON: Member Canup?
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1 MEMBER CANUP: Yes. 2 DENISE ANDERSON: Member Gronachan? 3 MEMBER GRONACHAN: Yes. 4 DENISE ANDERSON: Motion passes four to 5 zero. 6 MEMBER GRONACHAN: Your variance has 7 been granted. 8 Please see -- 9 Does she see the Building Department 10 for that, or is she all set? 11 MR. SAVEN: She should be all set, but 12 prior to any season before you start, you call the 13 office so we can take a look at the accessibility to 14 your building. 15 MS. CASSADA: Okay. 16 MR. SAVEN: Okay. 17 MEMBER GRONACHAN: Okay. 18 Good luck to you. 19 20 All right. Moving right along at 21 record speed, going to case number, 04-081, filed by 22 Lance Hardins of Toll Brothers for Island Lake 23 Development. Mr. Hardins is requesting 11 sign 24 variances for the 11 ground signs erected in the
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1 Island Lake Development, located north of Ten Mile and 2 Wixom Road. 3 Good evening. 4 And you are Mr. Hardins? 5 MR. HARDINS: Yes. Lance Hardins, Toll 6 Brothers, 30500 Northwestern, Farmington Hills, 7 Michigan. 8 MEMBER GRONACHAN: And you are not an 9 attorney; is that correct? 10 MR. HARDINS: Correct. 11 MEMBER GRONACHAN: Would you please 12 raise your right hand and be sworn in by our 13 secretary. 14 MEMBER BAUER: Do you solemnly swear or 15 affirm to tell the truth regarding case 04-081? 16 MR. HARDINS: Yes, I do. 17 MEMBER BAUER: Thank you. 18 MEMBER GRONACHAN: Mr. Hardins, I just 19 want to take a moment and remind you that you have a 20 packet and we've reviewed everything, so if you can 21 give us a synopsis. 22 MR. HARDINS: As you know, Island Lake 23 is in the Novi Community, over 800 acres. We've set- 24 up various directional signs and location signs
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1 throughout. Most of these -- all of these signs, I 2 believe, are on roads that have not been dedicated. 3 They're not on the main thoroughfares or interior 4 sides, but they still want to comply with the Code. 5 I'm asking for a variance, just because 6 we have a lot of traffic, and these are directional 7 signs to let people know where to go in our community. 8 We do not keep our signs up for extend periods of 9 time. As soon as we don't need them, we try to take 10 them down. They're not extravagant; they're just 11 placed to let people know where they need to go. 12 MEMBER GRONACHAN: Okay. 13 Excuse me, anything else? 14 MR. HARDINS: Nope, I think that is it. 15 MEMBER GRONACHAN: Is there anyone in 16 the audience that wishes to make comment in regards to 17 this case? 18 Seeing none, there were 97 notices 19 sent; zero approvals, one objection. The objection 20 was from Nancy Kola at 25579 Shoreline Drive, Novi. 21 Her objection is that bigger signs will distract from 22 the appearance of the community. Island Lake 23 Association, established by Toll Brothers, is not 24 allowed to erect pole signs of any kind in the
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1 neighborhood; including for sale. I don't see any 2 reason Toll Brothers should include signage for its 3 marketing purposes. 4 Building Department? 5 MR. SAVEN: No comment. 6 MEMBER GRONACHAN: Board Members? 7 MEMBER CANUP: A lot of variances. I 8 think the person who wrote that letter -- I don't see 9 the name -- but I think points were well taken. 10 However, I do understand the developer does need 11 direction. They need advertisement, I guess, for 12 homes that are for sale, so people do come in there 13 and they know where they're going and what's 14 available. 15 I don't know, you know, some of these 16 signs seem fairly large -- there's 28 square foot. 17 That's bigger than a sheet of plywood. Plywood's 32 18 square feet. 19 MEMBER GRONACHAN: Member Canup, can I 20 ask the Petitioner a question? 21 Mr. Hardins, can you clarify, are these 22 -- according to our packet, these signs appear to be 23 put specifically on specific lots; or were those lot 24 numbers just used for our identification, so we could
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1 find them when we went to go to see, driving around 2 the site? 3 MR. HARDINS: Most of them are in 4 specific sites, where it's either a directional sign, 5 you know, pointing directions to model homes or 6 actually, we have some that are in front of our 7 models, again, stating that is a model home. We're 8 open. We want to distinguish that from, you know, we 9 have other houses that are being built. So they are 10 in front of our models, for the most part. 11 And then the directional signs are 12 usually at corners and intersections. 13 MEMBER GRONACHAN: All right. 14 Given the map, which you gave us, could 15 you please clarify for this Board how many are 16 directional signs, and how many are like for sale 17 signs? 18 And I can probably note that there are 19 signs, sign one located at lot 145 at Ravine East 20 Development, east of Wixom. Is that a directional 21 sign? 22 MR. HARDINS: NO, that's actually a 23 sign that's distinguishing a model home. 24 MEMBER GRONACHAN: Okay.
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1 MR. HARDINS: Yeah. 2 MEMBER GRONACHAN: And then the next -- 3 MR. HARDINS: Actually, we have a 4 couple of these that were -- like this sign, will be 5 taken down in probably about two weeks, is what I'm 6 hoping. But there's another one there that's in front 7 of other model that will be open for sale. Does that 8 make sense? 9 As soon as it's done with it's 10 usefulness, we take the sign down. We don't keep our 11 signs up. This is what's up right now, but we will 12 take it down hopefully in a couple of weeks. 13 MEMBER CANUP: Which one is that, 14 number one? 15 MR. HARDINS: That's number one. 16 MEMBER GRONACHAN: So how long will the 17 directional signs be there? 18 MR. HARDINS: Those will be there, you 19 know, for extended period, you know, as long as 20 they're needed to get people through the community; 21 but they'll be up for quite awhile is what we -- 22 obviously for sale, for a couple of years. 23 MEMBER BAUER: For sale -- 24 MEMBER GRONACHAN: Sorry to steal your
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1 thunder there, but my clarification, in terms of 2 directional -- I can understand throughout that 3 complex, for directional signs, but these are a lot of 4 sign requests. 5 So I can understand with the 6 Petitioner, the need for directional -- right, like 7 the signs that we have -- but then, again, I'm not so 8 sure about -- 9 MEMBER CANUP: What do we do, handle 10 these one by one? 11 MEMBER GRONACHAN: Member Fischer? 12 MEMBER FISCHER: Now, it's my 13 understanding that these signs have some type of court 14 action going along with them with the Building 15 Department? 16 MR. AMOLSH: Correct. 17 MEMBER FISCHER: Could you give me the 18 background on that? 19 MR. AMOLSH: Okay. We initially had 20 notice out on these and we issued some civil 21 infraction tickets. We have an Order that's been 22 approved by a Judge in the 52nd District Court to 23 remove the signs, but we're waiting to do that, 24 pending the Board's decision on the variances.
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1 MEMBER FISCHER: Okay. 2 MEMBER CANUP: So if I understand that, 3 the Court upheld the violation? 4 MR. AMOLSH: Yes. 5 MEMBER CANUP: And they were told to 6 remove the signs. 7 MR. AMOLSH: Yes. If they do not 8 remove the signs, we have a right to come down and 9 take them down. 10 MR. HARDINS: We're not trying to fight 11 to keep the signs up. I have talked to Alan a bunch of 12 times. He obviously issued the citation. After 13 talking to him, he said that one option is coming in 14 front of you guys and ask for a variance. See, that's 15 what we're doing. 16 We're not trying to -- depending on 17 what you guys decide today, we'll agree to that. 18 MEMBER GRONACHAN: I still don't feel 19 that my question's been answered clear enough; and 20 that's about the directional signs. So -- 21 MR. HARDINS: Okay. If I can -- I'll 22 do my best. I believe number two is a directional 23 sign, located just on Drakes Bay; number three is a 24 directional sign; number four is a sign on the corner
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1 of Ten Mile and Wixom. We put that up because 2 obviously, as some of our marketing when you're 3 sitting at the corner of Ten Mile and Wixom Road, we 4 want people to get to know that our community's right 5 there. That's why we put that one up. 6 Number five is --that's in front of one 7 of our models. I guess, we tried to put it in front 8 of our models just to distinguish that, so that people 9 aren't wandering around going to other houses. It 10 seems silly, but I've seen homeowners walk right 11 passed a model up to a house across the street, with a 12 sign in front of it that says residents only; and 13 actually walk right in the front door. 14 So we try to put, you know, as many 15 signs as we can so that people aren't wandering all 16 over the place. 17 Number six is a directional sign; seven 18 is, I believe, just a sign that's stating that -- that 19 one is more of a advertising sign. 20 MEMBER BAUER: It looks the same as 21 four and five. 22 MR. HARDINS: Well, actually -- sorry. 23 MEMBER GRONACHAN: Well, I think I'm 24 going to -- number seven seems to be the same as
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1 number five; on the same street. So my question to 2 you at this point -- if the Board Members have 3 anything else to offer, I'm taking the lead here -- 4 what sign could you live without? 5 MR. HARDINS: Seven -- I didn't number 6 these, so I can go by memory. Number seven, we could 7 do without. 8 MEMBER GRONACHAN: Okay. So that takes 9 care of number seven. 10 MR. HARDINS: Nine is directional. 11 MEMBER GRONACHAN: Number eight is 12 directional at that clubhouse on Drakes Bay Drive; is 13 that correct? 14 MR. HARDINS: Number eight is a bigger 15 sign that shows, you know, where the clubhouse is and 16 some of the amenities in that. Obviously, our 17 clubhouse is a big -- 18 MEMBER GRONACHAN: It's 80 square feet. 19 And that one is already up, correct? 20 MR. HARDINS: All of these signs have 21 been up, yeah. 22 MEMBER GRONACHAN: Okay. 23 MR. HARDINS: Number nine is a 24 directional sign.
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1 MEMBER GRONACHAN: Okay. 2 Board members, any input at this point? 3 Anything else? 4 MEMBER CANUP: The signs are all very 5 tasteful. They're not shabby looking signs. They're 6 all allowed signs, except for the square footage. And 7 I guess the hardship would be to have to take them 8 down and shrink them all. 9 MR. HARDINS: I mean, to be honest, we 10 have a lot of people that complain that we don't have 11 enough signs up. Yes, we're asking for a lot of 12 variances, but this is a huge community, and we are 13 not putting -- 14 MEMBER CANUP: The Board doesn't agree 15 with you, but I can understand their standpoint. 16 MR. HARDINS: I do, too. But as I 17 said, these are mostly directional or marketing signs, 18 so people know where to go. We're not putting up the 19 one sign that is -- 20 MEMBER CANUP: I drove through there 21 last week one day, and I didn't find anything 22 obnoxious; at least, that jumped out at me. So I 23 guess I wouldn't have a problem with the granting some 24 of your variances, with the understanding that some of
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1 your signs don't meet the Ordinance. 2 MR. HARDINS: No, we take them down as 3 soon as we can. We only put them up where they're 4 necessary. 5 MEMBER GRONACHAN: Well? 6 MR. SAVEN: Madam Chair? 7 MEMBER GRONACHAN: Yes? 8 MR. SAVEN: It's been duly noted that 9 the type of the signs that they're asking for are 10 temporary signs. You may want to take into 11 consideration some kind of duration regarding the 12 signs; and bring him back at a certain time, if you 13 want. 14 MEMBER GRONACHAN: Well, we're already 15 down to ten, to ten signs, and I'm still waiting to 16 see if the Petitioner thinks that there's anything 17 else that he doesn't need at this point. 18 MR. HARDINS: I do know like the sign 19 for number one will -- that's one that will come down 20 relatively soon. I don't want to put an exact date, 21 because I'm not sure, but -- 22 MEMBER GRONACHAN: Okay. 23 MR. HARDINS: -- like I said, as soon 24 as I can get that one down, I will.
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1 MEMBER GRONACHAN: So at this point, 2 you're willing to go with the ten signs? 3 MR. HARDINS: Yes. 4 MEMBER GRONACHAN: Okay. 5 See the problem that I have is these 6 were all put up without the variances ahead of time. 7 And I understand the purpose of marketing and the 8 importance of it. 9 What about sign eight, everybody -- 10 does anybody have any opinions on sign eight, the 80 11 square foot? 12 Member Fischer? 13 MEMBER CANUP: That's a big sign. 14 MEMBER GRONACHAN: Member Fischer? 15 MEMBER FISCHER: It is a very large 16 sign. Out of all of the signs, I think that is the 17 most directional of them all. So I can't see saying, 18 you can have these directional signs, but we're not 19 going to let you have the biggest -- and what I think 20 shows all of the amenities of the whole community -- I 21 don't see how we can pull a double face there. 22 It is large, but can you tell me where 23 that's located again? How close is it to a major 24 thoroughfare?
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1 MR. HARDINS: It is -- I wish I had a 2 better map. I grabbed this as I was walking out the 3 door. 4 MEMBER CANUP: It's kind of on the road 5 that comes right in off of Ten. 6 MR. HARDINS: Yeah. 7 And this area is not blocking, you 8 know, anyone's view, but it's near the clubhouse, like 9 a marketing/directional sign there, kind of off to the 10 side of the street coming down, but near our clubhouse 11 right here in this corner; if that helps. 12 MEMBER FISCHER: Is that a major access 13 point -- I'm not -- 14 MR. HARDINS: Yeah. 15 MEMBER FISCHER: -- but is that a major 16 access point for most of your prospective customers, 17 too? 18 MR. HARDINS: Yeah. We get people to 19 come in off of Ten Mile. This is Terra Del Mar here; 20 and also off of Wixom. These are the areas that we're 21 talking about, the directional signs, to keep people 22 moving. We're -- 23 MEMBER FISCHER: So that's -- all of 24 these -- it's large, relative -- very large, but I
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1 think it's the most important sign if we're going to 2 grant some of these signs, I would be in support of 3 that one. 4 In fact, I go off of Wixom when I 5 entered Island Lakes. 6 MEMBER GRONACHAN: Member Canup? 7 MEMBER CANUP: Is there a time that 8 Toll Brothers feels they'll be built out here? 9 MR. HARDINS: I wish I could answer 10 that. I'm kind of guessing, but it's probably three, 11 four years, for all of them. Like I said, we take 12 signs down as soon as we don't need them anymore. 13 These signs, most of them will not be up that long. 14 If -- 15 MEMBER CANUP: Well, I would think that 16 if we took and granted a variance on the signs, less 17 than one that are agreed to not have, granted for a 18 period of one year. And that will give you a year of 19 attrition to get rid of some of those signs. And in a 20 year, come back and see us. If there are signs that 21 are still needed there, we could deal with it. 22 That's my take on it. 23 MEMBER BAUER: And don't put up any new 24 ones.
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1 MEMBER GRONACHAN: No more new ones, 2 without coming to see us. 3 MR. HARDINS: Nope. Okay. 4 MEMBER GRONACHAN: Okay. 5 Member Canup? 6 Member Fischer? 7 MEMBER FISCHER: Okay. 8 Which sign -- 9 MEMBER GRONACHAN: We deleted sign 10 number seven. 11 MEMBER CANUP: Before I make a Motion 12 here, number seven -- 13 MEMBER GRONACHAN: Uh-huh. 14 That was actually the only sign that 15 was deleted at this time. 16 Sign number one, per the Petitioner, is 17 only going to be up for a couple more weeks. 18 MEMBER CANUP: Okay. We'll table sign 19 number one. Yeah, we'll just table sign number one. 20 That keeps it in our action. 21 But when you take it down, that'll wipe 22 that out; is that correct? Is that a legal way to do 23 that? 24 MEMBER FISCHER: Why don't we give him
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1 a month for it? 2 MEMBER CANUP: Can we give it for a 3 month? 4 MR. GILLIAM: You can give it any time 5 that you want. 6 MEMBER CANUP: Okay. 7 Now what sign was that now? 8 MEMBER GRONACHAN: That was sign number 9 one. 10 MEMBER CANUP: Okay. One month. 11 Sign number seven goes. 12 MEMBER GRONACHAN: Deleted. 13 MEMBER FISCHER: Can we look at one 14 more sign, too? 15 Sign number nine, it's in the mix right 16 there. I'm not sure. I don't have the roads on mine; 17 next to sign number eight, ten; and seven has been 18 taken out. 19 MEMBER BAUER: Uh-huh. 20 MEMBER FISCHER: But your ten and eight 21 are still there. And eight is the big one. Do you 22 feel that's a directional sign? 23 MR. HARDINS: Which one is that? 24 MEMBER FISCHER: Number eight.
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1 I'm sorry, nine. 2 MR. HARDINS: Actually, this is the one 3 I thought was seven. 4 MEMBER FISCHER: Seven is this one, 5 right? I feel that is relatively the same sign. 6 MR. HARDINS: Yes. 7 MEMBER FISCHER: And they're all in that 8 area next to the very large sign. 9 MR. HARDINS: This one I don't need. 10 We can take down. 11 MEMBER FISCHER: Okay. 12 MEMBER CANUP: So what number is that? 13 MR. HARDINS: This is number nine. So 14 we can take that down immediately. 15 MEMBER CANUP: If that's the -- I would 16 make a Motion in case number 04-081, that we grant a 17 variance for a period of one year for the -- what is 18 it, 12 signs as requested, with the exclusion of 19 number nine being deleted; and number one is okay for 20 a period of one month from this date. 21 MEMBER BAUER: And number seven. 22 MEMBER CANUP: And seven being deleted, 23 also. 24 MR. HARDINS: No. When I was talking
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1 about seven, I meant sign nine. I didn't number 2 these. 3 MEMBER CANUP: Let me back up, then. 4 Seven stays, but not nine. 5 MEMBER FISCHER: Right. He was looking 6 at number seven. He thought that nine was seven. 7 However, I still feel that nine and seven should go, 8 due to the fact that one corner has the largest sign 9 that's being requested; and sign number ten is right 10 on that kiddy-corner from there. 11 MEMBER CANUP: I'll revise my Motion. 12 MEMBER GRONACHAN: Do you understand? 13 MR. HARDINS: Yes. 14 MEMBER CANUP: Yes. 15 MEMBER GRONACHAN: Oh, I'm sorry. The 16 Petitioner. 17 MEMBER CANUP: Seven and nine being 18 deleted, and then one being removed within 30 days 19 from this date; and all the rest for a period of one 20 year. 21 MEMBER GRONACHAN: Mr. Gilliam? 22 MR. GILLIAM: I'm being really 23 difficult tonight. I know that. 24 MEMBER GRONACHAN: We haven't started
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1 throwing anything at you. 2 MR. GILLIAM: I think for purposes of 3 the record, and particularly for Alan, for the purpose 4 of enforcement, if we could do a Motion for each sign. 5 I think that would make it simpler and easier for 6 everybody. 7 MEMBER CANUP: Okay. 8 I'm trying to find a way to do this 9 without having to make 12 separate Motions. 10 MEMBER GRONACHAN: 11. 11 MEMBER CANUP: Okay. Let's start off 12 with item number one. 13 I'd make a Motion that we grant a 14 variance in this case on sign number one for a period 15 of one month. 16 MEMBER BAUER: Second. 17 MEMBER GRONACHAN: Friendly amendment. 18 Just for the record, can you say lot 145 at the 19 Ravines East Development? 20 MEMBER CANUP: One over here reflects 21 over here on the map. 22 MEMBER GRONACHAN: Okay. 23 MEMBER FISCHER: And it's listed on the 24 agenda.
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1 MEMBER CANUP: Would it be okay to 2 just have (unintelligible) then we'd have a record of 3 all of them. 4 MR. GILLIAM: That's fine. 5 MR. SAVEN: That's fine. 6 MEMBER GRONACHAN: All those in favor 7 of the Motion made, say aye? 8 BOARD MEMBERS: Aye. 9 MEMBER GRONACHAN: Aye. 10 MEMBER CANUP: Okay. I'd make a Motion 11 on sign number two, that the variance be granted as 12 requested. 13 MEMBER BAUER: Second. 14 MEMBER GRONACHAN: All those in favor 15 of the Motion on sign number two, say aye? 16 BOARD MEMBERS: Aye. 17 MEMBER GRONACHAN: Aye. 18 Opposed? 19 None. 20 Okay. 21 MEMBER CANUP: I'd make a Motion in the 22 same case, sign number three, be approved as 23 requested. 24 MEMBER BAUER: Second.
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1 MEMBER GRONACHAN: All those in favor 2 of sign number three being approved, say aye? 3 BOARD MEMBERS: Aye. 4 MEMBER GRONACHAN: Aye. 5 Opposed? 6 None. 7 MEMBER CANUP: I'd make a Motion that 8 sign number four, again, we have recommended or make a 9 Motion that this be approved as requested. 10 MEMBER BAUER: Second. 11 MEMBER GRONACHAN: All those in favor of 12 sign number four being approved, say aye? 13 BOARD MEMBERS: Aye. 14 Opposed? 15 MR. SAVEN: Just one question. When we 16 first talked about the one year time frame -- 17 MEMBER CANUP: All for one year. 18 MR. SAVEN: Okay. Just wanted to make 19 sure we're clear. 20 MEMBER GRONACHAN: All those in favor 21 says aye? 22 BOARD MEMBERS: Aye. 23 Opposed? 24 None.
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1 Sorry, guys. 2 MEMBER CANUP: Number five now? 3 MEMBER GRONACHAN: Yes. 4 MEMBER CANUP: I'd make a Motion that 5 we grant the variance in sign -- case number five as 6 requested. 7 MEMBER BAUER: Second. 8 BOARD MEMBERS: All those in favor of 9 sign number five, say aye? 10 BOARD MEMBERS: Aye. 11 MEMBER GRONACHAN: Aye. 12 Opposed? 13 None. 14 MEMBER CANUP: I'd make a motion that 15 in the same case, number six, we grant the variance as 16 requested. 17 MEMBER BAUER: Second. 18 MEMBER GRONACHAN: All those in favor 19 of sign number six, say aye? 20 BOARD MEMBERS: Aye. 21 MEMBER GRONACHAN: Aye. 22 Opposed? 23 None. 24 MEMBER CANUP: Okay. Number seven had
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1 to go, right, sign seven was deleted. 2 So I'd make a Motion that we deny the 3 request for the variance in Sign number seven. 4 MEMBER BAUER: Second. 5 MEMBER GRONACHAN: All those in favor 6 of denying sign number seven, say aye? 7 BOARD MEMBERS: Aye. 8 MEMBER GRONACHAN: Aye. 9 Opposed? 10 None. 11 MEMBER CANUP: And I'd make a Motion 12 that in -- same case number, number eight, be approved 13 as stated. 14 MEMBER BAUER: Second. 15 MEMBER GRONACHAN: All those in favor 16 of approval of sign number eight, say aye? 17 BOARD MEMBERS: Aye. 18 MEMBER GRONACHAN: Aye. 19 Opposed? 20 None. 21 MEMBER CANUP: Number nine is deleted, 22 correct? 23 MR. HARDINS: Correct. 24 MEMBER CANUP: I'd make a Motion that
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1 we deny the variance or request on sign number nine, 2 in the same case. 3 MEMBER BAUER: Second. 4 MEMBER GRONACHAN: All those in favor 5 of denying sign nine, say aye? 6 BOARD MEMBERS: Aye. 7 MEMBER GRONACHAN: All opposed? 8 None. 9 MEMBER CANUP: I'd make a Motion, same 10 case, sign number ten, the request be granted as 11 stated. 12 MEMBER BAUER: Second. 13 MEMBER GRONACHAN: All those in favor 14 in granting approval in sign ten, say aye? 15 BOARD MEMBERS: Aye. 16 MEMBER GRONACHAN: Any opposed? 17 None. 18 MEMBER CANUP: I'd make a Motion that 19 in case -- sign number 11 be requested -- be granted 20 as requested. 21 MEMBER BAUER: Second. 22 MEMBER GRONACHAN: All those in favor 23 of sign number 11, say aye? 24 BOARD MEMBERS: Aye.
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1 MEMBER GRONACHAN: Any opposed? 2 None. 3 Okay. Those variances have been 4 granted. See you back in a month, if you need to come 5 back for any reason. 6 MR. HARDINS: Okay. 7 MEMBER GRONACHAN: And no additional 8 signs will be put up, before you come to see -- 9 MR. HARDINS: The two will be taken 10 down. 11 MEMBER GRONACHAN: Good luck to you. 12 13 Okay. Case number 04-084, filed by 14 James Tessen for Standard Federal Bank for signage at 15 I-96 at the new expo, Novi Expo. 16 Mr. Tessen of Standard Federal Bank is 17 requesting one sign variance to allow placement of a 18 marketing ground sign for Standard Federal Bank, 19 measuring 16 feet by eight feet; 128 square feet, with 20 the height of 16 feet. 21 And you are Mr. Tessen? 22 MR. TESSEN: Yes, I am. 23 Good evening. 24 MEMBER GRONACHAN: Good evening.
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1 Are you an attorney? 2 MR. TESSEN: No, I am not. 3 MEMBER GRONACHAN: Would you please 4 raise your right hand to be sworn in by our secretary. 5 MEMBER BAUER: Do you solemnly swear or 6 affirm to tell the truth regarding case, 04-084? 7 MR. TESSEN: Yes. 8 MEMBER BAUER: Thank you. 9 MEMBER GRONACHAN: Thank you. 10 Proceed. 11 MR. TESSEN: Good evening. 12 The Standard Federal Bank is just very 13 proud to be apart of the new exposition facility. 14 It's been many years in coming, just delighted to be 15 part of it. And the bank would like to show its 16 commitment to the community and to the project, by 17 having temporary sign that indicates that the 18 financing is provided by Standard Federal. 19 Just to show the dedication for the 20 future projects; that we definitely want to be 21 associated with the community. And it would be 22 limited wording. And this sign would be taken down 23 once the certificate of occupancy is issued for the 24 new facility.
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1 The mock-up is in place. It's visible 2 from eastbound trafficking. It's canned a little bit. 3 We tried to give an indication of the size of the 4 permanent sign; not permanent sign, but temporary 5 sign. As I say, it's only during the period of 6 construction. 7 MEMBER GRONACHAN: Okay. 8 Anything else? 9 All right. 10 Thank you. 11 Is there anyone in the audience that 12 wishes to make comment in regards to this case? 13 Seeing none, there were nine notices 14 mailed; no approvals no objections. 15 Building Department? 16 MR. SAVEN: No comment. 17 MEMBER GRONACHAN: Okay. 18 Board Members? 19 Member Canup? 20 MEMBER CANUP: I guess other than just 21 wanting to have a sign, as this gentleman has stated 22 to be part of the community, I guess one of the things 23 that this Board operates on is what is the hardship; 24 other than advertising for a bank. What is the
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1 hardship for the necessity of this sign? 2 MR. TESSEN: I agree. 3 The hardship would be hard to really 4 emphasize. It is showing the -- just that we're so 5 much involved with this project. Several banks 6 certainly were bidding on it. We just felt, to show 7 the new Standard Federal Bank's commitment for 8 commercial projects. That is really where we're 9 trying to make a case. 10 MEMBER CANUP: I appreciate that, but I 11 guess in looking, what is the value to the residents 12 of the City of Novi? Is there a value there for the 13 residents? I can't see where is the value; other than 14 a billboard located on a private use property. 15 I did look at your sign, your mock-up, 16 that was there, and I guess in general, the size of 17 the sign and what-have-you, I don't have a problem 18 with it; except I don't see the value for it for the 19 people in the City of Novi or need for direction; 20 other than it's just a billboard. 21 MEMBER GRONACHAN: Anyone else? 22 Member Fischer? 23 MEMBER FISCHER: I agree that it 24 doesn't, per se, give value to the City, but I think
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1 that it is giving value to one of our important 2 business customers -- expo center, as well as Standard 3 Federal Bank, which we have at least, one -- two 4 branches in the City of Novi. 5 This isn't something that I see that is 6 out of the ordinary, and I -- it's not necessarily the 7 case that I've seen it on other highways, however, I 8 just -- I can see his point. I can see a hardship 9 there. 10 MEMBER BAUER: What is their main 11 (unintelligible.) 12 MEMBER FISCHER: Well, that was another 13 question of mine. In the sign, you do say that -- 14 MEMBER BAUER: And it's prohibited. 15 MEMBER FISCHER: Correct. 16 You do say being part of the community, 17 being part -- what you're financing. However, you 18 really don't say what you're financing. And that's 19 why I stated it's just a billboard and that's why I 20 still do agree with Mr. Canup. 21 MR. TESSEN: Right. 22 This was the original rendering from 23 the sign company. In fact, John Bowen's with me, 24 representing, of course, the Novi Expo. But depending
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1 on the ultimate size of the sign, some indication of 2 the T-bond name or giving affect to the new exposition 3 site; financed by Standard Federal. 4 It wouldn't be just Standard Federal 5 Bank, it would be an indication of the new exposition 6 facility, tying both together. 7 MEMBER FISCHER: I see. 8 Still, I see that as a reason that it 9 then becomes not just a marketing sign, in my eyes. 10 It shows what's being built and where it's going to 11 be. So -- 12 MR. BOWEN: With the Chair's 13 indulgence, my name is John Bowen. I'm representing 14 T-Bond, LLC, tonight. Sorry I'm a couple minutes 15 late, but I was doing football practice tonight. 16 We are proud to have Standard Federal 17 Bank as our partner on this and Standard Federal is 18 financing the project and made a significant 19 investment in our project. I think a significant 20 investment in the community by financing the project. 21 And they're requesting that during the period of 22 construction that they be able to identify themselves 23 as the party that made the investment with us in this 24 community.
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1 And I think it's an important thing to 2 let not only the business community, but the residents 3 in Novi know who the partners into the community are. 4 And for that reason, I ask that the Board look 5 favorably upon the request and grant them the ability 6 to erect the sign. It's of the size that really is 7 necessary to have it visible from the placement that 8 it's being put; which is right next to the 9 construction trailer that's on the site currently. 10 It's not a tremendously large sign; 11 considering the rate of speed that people are 12 traveling on the highway and the distance from the 13 highway. 14 MEMBER GRONACHAN: Member Fischer? 15 MEMBER FISCHER: Can the Building 16 Department give me some background, I guess, as to 17 Ordinances, advertising signs, marking signs, any type 18 of signs? Because I know that on I-96 and Novi Road, 19 there's a sign on the highway there. So what -- give 20 me some background. 21 MR. SAVEN: If I may, Alan? 22 MR. AMOLSH: Exactly what are you 23 looking for? 24 MEMBER FISCHER: Just some background
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1 as to Ordinances, concerning not just the size. 2 MR. AMOLSH: Well, any sign -- off 3 premises billboard advertisements, all of the types of 4 signs along the freeway are all intended for that. 5 The one you just mentioned was approved by the Board 6 some years ago for -- actually, for Sheraton Hotel. 7 This type of sign is not a permitted sign. 8 If they included that kind of 9 information with their construction sign, if they 10 wanted to. But these kinds of signs are not permitted 11 signs under the Ordinance. 12 MR. BOWEN: Currently, if I might add, 13 there's currently onsite just a safety sign. It's not 14 a construction sign on the property. Just a general 15 safety, wear your helmet. 16 MR. AMOLSH: Well, the construction sign 17 went up Saturday, I think, or Friday. You have it on 18 Grand River. 19 MR. BOWEN: I think you're talking 20 about the -- 21 MR. AMOLSH: No, there's another one, 22 right to the east of that. Just went up recently. It 23 was permitted. 24 MEMBER FISCHER: What do we know as far
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1 as the certificate of occupancy, how long will that 2 be? How long are we looking for? 3 MR. BOWEN: The current target, and 4 we're on track with construction, probably sometime 5 next late June or July. 6 MEMBER FISCHER: That's a temporary 7 sign, as well; and it's one that I'd be willing to 8 grant for nine months or so, until June. 9 Thank you. 10 MEMBER GRONACHAN: Member Bauer, do you 11 have any incite? 12 MEMBER BAUER: Pardon? 13 MEMBER GRONACHAN: Do you have any 14 incite to offer? 15 MEMBER BAUER: I suggest putting it on 16 the construction sign. But by itself, you can't do 17 it. 18 MEMBER GRONACHAN: I tend to agree with 19 Member Canup. And when it comes to the bottom line, 20 what is the hardship. And I have heard monetary a 21 lot, and unfortunately as a Board Member, I can't use 22 that as a criteria. 23 Now if Standard Federal so fits to -- 24 any officials on this end can correct me -- but based
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1 on Mr. Bauer says, you can put it on the construction 2 site; is that correct? 3 MR. SAVEN: Construction identification 4 sign. 5 MEMBER GRONACHAN: On the construction 6 identification sign, then that's fine. But I don't 7 see the purpose of having it on I-96. I'm grateful. 8 I'm excited that the Novi Expo Center is coming; and 9 I'm more than excited that Standard Federal is doing 10 the financing. 11 However, I feel that this is nothing 12 but an advertising sign and I fail to see what the 13 hardship is at this point. And if you two gentleman 14 can come up with something more creative or convince 15 me otherwise, along with a couple of other Board 16 Members, I mean, I'm sorry, but I would not be able to 17 support this request at this time, and for those 18 reasons. 19 Member Canup, were you -- 20 Or Member Fischer? 21 MEMBER FISCHER: Given that, would you 22 be willing to table the case to see if they would like 23 to come up with something more creative, if that's 24 okay?
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1 MR. TESSEN: Yes. We'd certainly like 2 to -- 3 MR. BOWEN: We'll, look into a couple 4 of things. We'll look into putting something on the 5 construction signage, as well, and see about the 6 hardship. 7 MR. TESSEN: The hardship issue. 8 MEMBER GRONACHAN: I think at this 9 point, tabling is going to do (unintelligible). And 10 the reason why do suggest they do put it on the 11 construction sign, is it correct, they would not need 12 a variance at that point. 13 MR. SAVEN: I believe they already have 14 a sign. 15 Is that correct, Alan? 16 MR. AMOLSH: Yes, they do. 17 MEMBER GRONACHAN: So it would be a 18 whole new different thing, so -- 19 MEMBER FISCHER: They're allowed one; 20 is that correct, and that is on Grand River. And if 21 they want one on 96, they'd have to come back. 22 MR. AMOLSH: They still have the 23 construction sign. 24 MEMBER GRONACHAN: If they want to do
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1 that. 2 If they change the location on the 3 case, would this case change or would that be -- 4 MR. SAVEN: It would be re-advertised. 5 MEMBER GRONACHAN: But it would still 6 be the same case. 7 MR. AMOLSH: It's up to the Board. 8 MEMBER GRONACHAN: I'm sorry, Alan. I 9 didn't hear you. 10 MR. AMOLSH: I said, it's up to the 11 Board. 12 MEMBER BAUER: If they change it, it 13 has to be a new case. 14 MEMBER GRONACHAN: That's what I 15 thought. 16 MEMBER CANUP: New case. 17 MR. SAVEN: I think if we ask the 18 Petitioner -- 19 John, do you intend to put this on a 20 new construction identification sign in two locations, 21 one off Grand River and one on the expressway? 22 MR. BOWEN: If I understand Mr. Saven's 23 question correctly, I think the way I understand it, 24 we'd be able to put Standard Federal identification on
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1 the construction sign that's currently on Grand River. 2 And that if we wanted this Board to consider an 3 additional sign location that would face I-96, we'd 4 have to come back with a new Petition to have that. 5 MR. SAVEN: Correct. 6 MR. BOWEN: Currently, we're approved 7 for the construction sign, and we wouldn't have to 8 bring it back to this Board to add Standard Federal to 9 that sign. 10 MR. AMOLSH: That's -- 11 MEMBER GRONACHAN: That's correct. 12 MR. BOWEN: Okay. We understand. 13 MR. TESSEN: Okay. 14 Thank you very much. 15 MEMBER GRONACHAN: Okay. We're not done 16 yet. We've got our stuff to do. 17 Member Canup, would you like to make a 18 Motion? 19 MEMBER CANUP: They could withdraw the 20 case, right? 21 MR. GILLIAM: Correct. 22 MR. BOWEN: I think based on the 23 conversations that -- in conferring with Mr. Tessen, I 24 think we'd like to withdraw our case now.
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1 MEMBER GRONACHAN: Thank you. 2 MEMBER BAUER: Thank you. 3 4 MEMBER GRONACHAN: Okay. Moving right 5 along to case number, 04-086, filed by Cheryl Murphy, 6 homeowner at 22798 Shadow Pine Way in the Village Oaks 7 Subdivision. 8 Mrs. Murphy is requesting an eight foot 9 exterior side variance for the construction of a first 10 floor addition, to the home locate at the above 11 address. 12 Good evening. 13 MRS. MURPHY: Good evening. 14 MEMBER GRONACHAN: Are you Mrs. Murphy? 15 MRS. MURPHY: I am. 16 MEMBER GRONACHAN: Would you please 17 raise your right hand to be sworn in by our secretary. 18 MEMBER BAUER: Do you solemnly swear or 19 affirm to tell the truth regarding case, 04-086? 20 MRS. MURPHY: I do. 21 MEMBER BAUER: Thank you. 22 MRS. MURPHY: Good evening. 23 You have the original documents, I 24 believe, as I submitted them with the drawing of the
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1 home. Can you turn on the overhead? Okay. There we 2 go. 3 The original application stated the 4 purpose for the addition. We're an established 5 resident of 17 years. We decided to extend our 6 residency into our senior years, with this first floor 7 master bedroom addition. The north location being 8 least proximate to the majority of the neighbors and 9 the least disruption. 10 The expansion of the basement, also is 11 part of the foundation, is limited to the north side, 12 for which I've requested the variance. 13 Additional points to consider is that 14 our primary utilities, electrical, gas and plumbing -- 15 both water and sewer -- are located on the north side 16 of the house. The proposal, in keeping with the 17 subdivision architectural design consideration, 18 retaining symmetry and interest. The overall 19 appearance is aesthetically pleasing, views from the 20 residents are maintained or enhanced. 21 Attempts, also to minimize the variance 22 request was made by setting the first floor addition 23 towards the rear or east of the property. The overall 24 size of the master is proportionate and reasonable.
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1 New construction would be confined to 2 one area of the residence. The portion of the 3 construction in the setback area is less than ten 4 percent than the total proposed addition. 5 Initial use of the first floor addition 6 is anticipated for use by aging parents; and then into 7 our senior years, we would propose to move into that 8 bedroom 9 And finally, the personal contact I 10 have had with the neighbor, I have not met with any 11 opposition. And on the contrary, many of my neighbors 12 are in support of the plan. Corresponding upgrades, 13 putting up siding. It's a 30-year, plus home, and a 14 porch replacement would be considered with that, as 15 well. 16 MEMBER GRONACHAN: Okay. 17 MRS. MURPHY: It was also recommended 18 that I bring a drawing showing the current home and 19 its internal layout. As you can see here, it's a 20 standard Village Oaks home. One of the different 21 models. I don't know how many different models there 22 were, with the front foyer, living room and dining 23 room to the left; the garage to the right. There's a 24 breakfast, a great room addition on the back. The
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1 addition proposed is on this side. 2 So it compliments the current layout of 3 the house, with minimum disruption to, you know, to 4 the house, as far as access from that room, to the 5 balance of the house. 6 And finally, this is the property 7 layout, which you've probably seen. This is a house 8 with a proposed addition being on this side over -- 9 MEMBER GRONACHAN: Okay. 10 Anything else? 11 MRS. MURPHY: I think that about does 12 it. 13 MEMBER GRONACHAN: All right. 14 Is there anyone in the audience that 15 wishes to make comment in regards to this case? 16 Seeing none, there were 35 notices 17 mailed; two approvals and one objection -- one 18 objection and one approval. 19 DENISE ANDERSON: I handed out this 20 earlier tonight. 21 The person in charge of the 22 architectural committee initially approved it. I 23 think it was August 17th. August 17th, it was 24 initially approved; and then today I received a letter
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1 from the full board of the Village Oaks common area 2 association, stating that they do not support the 3 proposed variance; and they did attach a copy of their 4 letter. 5 MEMBER GRONACHAN: Okay. I just wanted 6 to clarify that. 7 Thank you. 8 The Village Oaks Common Area 9 Association has filed objections in regards to this 10 case. They do not support the proposed variance. In 11 their opinion, the homeowner has not met any of the 12 criteria for the approval of the one variance, as per 13 the attached document. 14 Besides not meeting your criteria for 15 granting variances, there are traffic safety concerns 16 related to the granting of variances for side yard 17 corner lot setbacks. We further believe that it is 18 not the best interest of the residents of the 19 association to deviate from the City of Novi's Zoning 20 Ordinances. 21 Then we do have an approve from 22 Helden(ph) Swinehart at 22797 Shadow Pines Way; and 23 another approval from John Bevis at 22859 Heather Bray 24 Way.
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1 Building Department? 2 MR. SAVEN: I just wanted to remind the 3 Board, this is a corner lot; not an interior lot. 4 MEMBER GRONACHAN: Okay. 5 Board Members? 6 Member Bauer? 7 MEMBER BAUER: May I? 8 MEMBER GRONACHAN: Absolutely. 9 But you need to put your mic on first. 10 MEMBER BAUER: I think possibly if you 11 move that back within the further setback -- 12 MRS. MURRAY: Yeah. That was an 13 initial consideration to move it back. I'd like to 14 present a photograph taken from the bay window of the 15 addition, the great room. That would restrict the 16 view from that window to the road. Is it stands, the 17 addition would already extend about half way back, the 18 back of the house, obstructing the view, basically, 19 from the tree to the left. Then additional photo 20 shows the safety consideration that was raised, really 21 is negated by this photo, that shows that if you were 22 to approach that intersection, coming down Shadow Pine 23 from this direction, toward the sign, this first tree 24 and this other fruit tree, are going to be more of an
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1 obstruction than the addition; which stays within the 2 large willow tree, which is growing even higher than 3 in that photograph. 4 Did I answer your question? I was 5 originally -- 6 MEMBER BAUER: It did not. 7 MRS. MURRAY: I didn't? 8 MEMBER BAUER: No. 9 MRS. MURRAY: Okay. 10 MEMBER BAUER: If you were pushing that 11 all the way back to come into that 30 foot square off 12 of Village Lake Road, you would have no problem, none. 13 MRS. MURRAY: If I were to push it all 14 the way back? 15 MEMBER BAUER: Back to the 30 lot. You 16 have a 30 foot lot. 17 MRS. MURRAY: Okay. You're saying if I 18 were to push it all the way back into that direction? 19 MEMBER BAUER: That's correct. 20 MRS. MURRAY: Okay. Right, I 21 understand what you're saying. And that was actually 22 looked at initially. What that would effect would be 23 this other view -- if you could bear with me a minute, 24 while I pull out the right drawing -- it would effect
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1 the symmetry of the north elevation of that addition, 2 and it would create a very large appearance. From the 3 street, it's a little bit large, but essentially if it 4 were to be pushed back from the house, it would fit 5 this location or from this street side, it would 6 appear to be very large. 7 And it really wouldn't be as fitting 8 with architectural interest of the neighbors, you 9 know, the surrounding neighbors. It was an original 10 consideration. 11 Did that help? 12 MEMBER CANUP: Would you read the 13 letter from the neighborhood association again for me, 14 please? 15 MEMBER GRONACHAN: Sure. 16 Telephone conversation, this letter is 17 date September 7th. We would like to clarify our 18 original letter, dated August 17th. While we do 19 approve the idea of the building addition, we do not 20 support the proposed variance. In our opinion, the 21 homeowner has not met any of the criteria for the 22 approval of a Zoning variance, as per the attached 23 document. 24 Besides not meeting the criteria for
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1 granting a variance, there are traffic and safety 2 concerns related to the granting of variances for side 3 yard corner lot setbacks. 4 We further believe it is not in the 5 interest -- best interest of the residents of the 6 association to deviate from the City of Novi's Zoning 7 Ordinances. 8 MEMBER CANUP: And that's from a 9 neighborhood association, correct? 10 MEMBER GRONACHAN: That is from the 11 Village Oaks Common Area Association. 12 MEMBER CANUP: Okay. 13 MEMBER GRONACHAN: Member Fischer? 14 MEMBER FISCHER: Before we get into 15 conversations, I don't know if we asked the audience 16 if there was anyone. 17 MEMBER GRONACHAN: Yeah, I did. 18 MEMBER FISCHER: We did? 19 Okay. 20 MEMBER CANUP: I guess I would have, in 21 light of this letter, I would have a -- and I know you 22 want to look out for the neighbors if someone wanted 23 to do something next to you. We look out for you as 24 we would look out for them.
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1 MRS. MURRAY: I understand. 2 MEMBER CANUP: In this case. 3 And I think in light of this letter 4 that we have from the homeowners' association that we 5 would -- my opinion, I would be hard pressed to give a 6 or table an opinion on the vote on this case. 7 MRS. MURRAY: May I -- I was at the 8 meeting with them last night, if I may, and I think 9 their primary concern was they didn't -- they did not 10 want to grant the variance that was really in the 11 authority of Novi, the City of Novi, rather than them. 12 And they preferred not to set a precedent, although 13 they did feel that on an individual case basis, they 14 would have to evaluate, you know, each homeowner, 15 individually. 16 MEMBER GRONACHAN: I have a suggestion. 17 MRS. MURRAY: Yes, ma'am. 18 MEMBER GRONACHAN: I think that this 19 particular case needs to go back to the drawing table 20 for a couple of reasons. This is a unique lot size 21 and shape, okay. 22 MRS. MURRAY: Yes, it is. 23 MEMBER GRONACHAN: And I think that 24 there maybe, as Mr. Bauer pointed out to you, other
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1 options other than just this. I know it's very 2 difficult when you have a plan set in your head on 3 what you want to do; it just doesn't fit into where 4 the property is. And I guess that's why we have the 5 ZBA. 6 MRS. MURRAY: Yes. 7 MEMBER GRONACHAN: But I think that 8 this needs to go back to have another look at. And I 9 think that maybe perhaps you might want to go back to 10 Village Oaks; because they're not opposing your 11 addition. They're opposing the fact that you need to 12 have a variance to do so. 13 MRS. MURRAY: Correct. 14 MEMBER GRONACHAN: And I think that 15 perhaps with a little conversation and maybe with a 16 little more creativity -- you have a pretty good sized 17 lot here. And I understand what it is that you're 18 trying to do. And if and then, after you look at all 19 of your alternatives, and you come back here and show 20 us there's just no other way that this can be done; 21 then we'll take another look at it. 22 But my suggestion is to table it at 23 this time. 24 MRS. MURRAY: Okay.
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1 MEMBER GRONACHAN: Go back and do a 2 little homework. Take a look at the whole picture, not 3 just -- do you know what I'm trying to suggest to you? 4 MRS. MURRAY: I do. I'm curious as far 5 as foundation and the basement extensions; that's to 6 be a whole part of it. I don't see how setting it 7 back would allow a congruent floor plan, but. 8 MEMBER GRONACHAN: Let me just say, we 9 give suggestions and then we turn it over to the 10 experts, because I'm sure you had an architect to do 11 this drawing -- 12 MRS. MURRAY: Yes. He did draw the 13 plan that Mr. Bauer had suggested, and that one was, 14 again, it aesthetically was not pleasing. It looked 15 like -- it looked like -- it stuck out. 16 MEMBER GRONACHAN: Well, my suggestion 17 if you're willing to go ahead with this, is to go back 18 to the drawing -- bring both of those cases back or 19 take a look at what -- and meet again with your 20 association. I do note for the record that you do 21 have two neighbors that are approving it. Just a 22 couple can go up against a whole association if they 23 don't find approval. And I think that this is 24 something that could perhaps be worked out.
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1 MRS. MURRAY: Okay. 2 MEMBER GRONACHAN: So if we could, 3 would 30 days be enough time for you? Would you like 4 to come back and see us next month; although we do 5 have a pretty big -- we do have a full meeting, but 6 would 30 days be enough time? And if it's not, give 7 Denise a call and she can allow you 60 days. I don't 8 know what your schedule is. 9 MRS. MURRAY: I have to look at my 10 calendar. 11 MEMBER GRONACHAN: Okay. 12 And at this time, we'll table it and 13 we'll see you back with a little more homework. 14 MRS. MURRAY: Okay. 15 MEMBER GRONACHAN: Thank you. 16 MRS. MURRAY: Thank you. 17 18 MEMBER GRONACHAN: Okay. 19 Next case is 04-088, filed by Tom 20 Harvey, homeowner at 1603 West Lake Drive. Mr. Harvey 21 is requesting five variances to allow construction of 22 an addition to an existing home, located at the above 23 address. The applicant is requesting a 29 foot front 24 yard setback variance; an 11 foot rear yard setback
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1 variance; a 13 foot -- 13.4 side yard setback 2 variance, with a 13 foot -- 13.4 foot variance for the 3 combined total of both side yards. 4 Easy for me to say. 5 And you are Mr. Harvey? 6 MR. HARVEY: Yes, Tom Harvey. 7 MEMBER GRONACHAN: Okay. 8 Would you raise your right had and be 9 sworn in by our secretary. 10 MEMBER BAUER: Do you solemnly swear or 11 affirm to tell the truth regarding case, 04-088? 12 MR. HARVEY: Yes, I do. 13 MEMBER BAUER: Thank you, sir. 14 MR. HARVEY: Good evening. 15 We presented the Board with all of the 16 presentation materials in advance. There were three 17 pages added to the end. I believe it was mailed to 18 you. Hopefully, everybody received them. 19 I'm not going to go through every slide 20 and all of the text, but if you do want to flip 21 through the pages, I will go in the same order that 22 the materials were put together in. 23 Basically, my wife Joyce and I 24 purchased this property at 1603 West Lake Drive ten
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1 years ago. Even for lots in the northend around the 2 lake -- all right. Even for homes on the lake on the 3 northend, this one is particularly unusual. In fact, 4 it's really the typical definition of a flag lot. I'd 5 never heard the term until we purchased the house. 6 And since that time, we've never 7 regretted moving in there. We really enjoy living on 8 the property. But in the last few years, we have 9 started a family -- as we had planned -- and we knew 10 ultimately that some changes would have to be made. 11 We didn't come up with a plan in short order. We've 12 actually been considering it for many years; and have 13 discussed it with the neighbors during that time, as 14 well. 15 What we have currently, is an existing 16 two-story home; with a detached one-car garage and car 17 port. The lot is 40 feet wide from the lake front 18 back; approximately 130 feet. The lake front, 19 actually, the concrete sea wall, is not the legal lot 20 limit. The legal lot limit is back about 22 feet. 21 So the variances that we are requesting 22 are based on the legal lot lines; not where the 23 existing sea wall is. The sea wall was actually put 24 in in the 1950's, and has been there ever since.
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1 The practical limitations to the home 2 are partially innerved(ph) by the fact that the garage 3 is detached. Now, with the children, its an extra 4 hardship to have to take them in and out of the car 5 seats in the weather. Typically, the car port has 6 quite honestly been used for storage of outdoor items, 7 like snow shovels and lawn furniture and things of 8 this sort; which just couldn't be put into the small 9 garage space. 10 So in addition, the house is on a crawl 11 space. The water table has made it such that we've 12 been advised not to try to put a basement under it. 13 Since these are additions and not a complete tear-down 14 and remodel or rebuild. We also considered raising 15 the house and a putting a basement under it, but 16 again, other concern there was the possible damage to 17 the existing structure that could occur. 18 The current foundation is sound. It's 19 supporting the existing two-story house. So again, 20 the goal is to leave what we have there, and try to 21 work around it to meet our practical needs. 22 The -- to give you a sense of just how 23 small the house is for a family of four, the 24 downstairs is 760 square feet, which essentially
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1 composes the kitchen, laundry and utility room; a 2 small bathroom, and some living space. That's about 3 the size of most three-car garages built in Novi 4 today. So, you know, it really is a fairly small 5 space. 6 In addition, our furnace, the water 7 heater and well storage tank, water softener, all of 8 these mechanical systems are on the first floor in the 9 utility room. Again, without a basement, it's just 10 impractical to put them anywhere else. 11 The upstairs is -- it has three- 12 bedrooms and a full bath. The major concern we have 13 with the upstairs is just that the bedrooms tend to be 14 small and the ceiling is really at kind of its minimum 15 height required. 16 So what we've decided to do is -- after 17 looking at the lot and considering how to attach a 18 garage to the home -- we came up with this plan; and 19 this is really the minimum two-car garage. It's a 16 20 foot wide door, which is the practical limit in terms 21 of two-car garage doors. 22 We -- and in the packet there, we 23 provided some information where we showed the 24 potential to do a side entry garage or a front entry
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1 garage; and neither one is feasible. I showed Don 2 Saven what we were trying to do with the side entry; 3 and with only 17 feet, it didn't meet the turning 4 radius requirements for a side entry. So we proposed 5 a diagonal entry garage -- the section A here. 6 Another concern for this existing 7 structure, is that the garage/car port actually is a 8 non-conforming situation on the south property line; 9 while the home has a non-conforming situation on the 10 south property line and the north property line, the 11 lake. In combination, they're essentially cutting off 12 their access from the front of the property to the 13 rear of the property. 14 Additionally, all of our utilities are 15 located here on this side of the house; the south side 16 of the house. That makes building sideways less 17 practical. In addition, it would only increase the or 18 create a non-conformance on the property line to the 19 south. 20 So by moving this garage over to the 21 north property line and attaching it to the home here, 22 we're actually clearing complete access along the 23 south side from the front to the back; as well as 24 removing an existing non-conformance -- basically have
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1 this garage/carport about 1.5 feet from the line 2 there. So actually removing the non-conformance in 3 this area. 4 We are increasing the non-conformance 5 over here, but in so doing, we are creating a 6 situation which is actually very common to the other 7 homes, and I'll touch on that in a moment. 8 I think I have covered -- oh, yeah, the 9 last practical hardship, which we've tried to deal 10 with, is just the fact that we really need some 11 additional storage, indoor storage space; and really, 12 play space. I mean, when I was growing up, my brother 13 and I -- you know, six months out of the year, the 14 lake is a great place to be. The other six months it 15 can be very unpleasant. We call it hibernating 16 actually in our neighborhood. You don't see anybody. 17 And you really need to have some space to set-up a 18 ping-pong table or something, you know, for the kids 19 to do inside. 20 So what we have asked to do in 21 addition, is to do a finished attic, and that would 22 give us, essentially, the same amount of space that 23 you would typically get in a basement; which most 24 homes out in Novi are built with basements today.
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1 Okay. With that, I would like to go on 2 to the specific variances, I think. And the first one 3 I'm going to address -- when the letter came out, we 4 -- as much as we tried to cover this with other 5 homeowners in the area, there were some concerns when 6 the letter came out. Specifically, the letter says 7 for the lake side, that the required setback is 35 8 feet. We're requesting that it be 24 feet. 9 Some interpretations of that, were that 10 we were going to build the house down to 24 feet from 11 the water. Okay. And again, I really want to point 12 out that, in fact, we're not building down to 24 feet 13 from the water. What we are doing is requesting to 14 build the home down to within 24 feet of the legal lot 15 line. The water being an additional 22 and a half 16 feet from that point. 17 So actually, this addition that we'd be 18 building out here will be 46 and a half feet from the 19 water. Okay. And I have another picture here showing 20 that. And what we did is we took the -- we tried to 21 utilize the geological survey photos, because we 22 thought it was really the most straight forward way to 23 look at everything that's affected. 24 And basically, we went 125 feet in
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1 either direction from our home. The property to the 2 south is an enormous lot. It's 87 foot wide lot. 3 It's really quite a large structure already present on 4 it. We also, going to the north, had four homes at 5 125 feet. Two of the homes extend quite a bit further 6 out from the parallel line to the lake. But they are, 7 again, right at the end of the 125 foot range. 8 This home here, the second home from 9 our home, is basically on line with this. And the 10 home directly next to us is tilted slightly at a 11 different angle. But the corner of that home is also 12 on this line. So we did take quite a bit of care not 13 to infringe on the view of our other neighbors. 14 And in addition, this home, besides 15 being quite a distance from our home, has no windows 16 on the side. So again, their view is not impacted by 17 this proposed addition. 18 The reason -- and just about every 19 builder I've spoken to has told me this is not an 20 efficient way to deal with a home addition, but in our 21 case, we don't have a lot of choices. In order to 22 increase living space on the first floor -- in order 23 to get a full-sized living room -- right now we have 24 enough space for dining room or a living space, but
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1 not both. 2 We can't go back this way anymore, 3 because we need it for the garage. So we do have to 4 go -- or we're requesting to go ten feet in this 5 direction. So it's actually -- this ends up being 6 sort of series of smaller projects. A ten foot 7 addition toward the lake, you give up the first floor 8 living space we're seeking. And then the addition in 9 the other direction to attach the garage. 10 So I just wanted to make it totally 11 clear that although we are requesting 24 feet from the 12 front yard setback, the front -- the legal front -- 13 I'm sorry, the rear. On the lake front, this is 14 really the rear. 24 feet from the legal line, but 46 15 and a half feet from the water. 16 Okay. The next variance that we're 17 looking for is in regards to the garage, itself. Now, 18 the peculiarities just keep on coming. We have what 19 is best termed an interior front yard line. 20 Typically, the front yard is considered from the 21 street back to the structure. In generic terms, 22 that's what people think of when they see front yards. 23 Because of this notch here, we actually have an 24 interior front yard line. And in reality, more than
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1 half of this structure is 110 feet back from the 2 street. But in this particular point right here, we 3 are one foot from that corner. 4 What I've done to show you that -- how 5 the non-conforming structure in some cases, can really 6 be a conforming structure up in this part of the 7 woods, is that if you look at where the road is, and 8 where all of the other structures or accessory 9 structures are, even by those standards, what we're 10 asking to do is quite a bit farther back from where 11 everything else is in the area. 12 So again, here we are. We are required 13 to have, I believe it's 30 feet to the front yard 14 line, and in fact, we're asking for a one foot, for a 15 variance of 29 feet to that point right there. 16 The third variance and the fourth 17 variance, which really go together, because they are 18 side yard setback -- cumulative side yard setbacks -- 19 are along this north property line. I touched on it 20 earlier. Basically, moving the garage over here, 21 eliminates an existing non-conformance on this line; 22 but it increases one on this side. 23 Ultimately, the concern is 24 serviceability of the structure. We're already taken
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1 measures in terms of putting -- using as low 2 maintenance materials as possible, such as brick, 3 along this side so that we won't have to get around 4 there often. But when that finally occurs that you 5 need to get to the side of the building, right now, if 6 I needed service to the existing garage, I need 7 cooperation from the neighbor to the south -- which 8 has not been a problem. As well as to service the 9 existing house, I need cooperation from the neighbor 10 to the north. And again, we've been lucky in that 11 area. Everybody's very cooperative and we haven't had 12 any issues. 13 But by doing this, I've reduced the 14 number of parties involved by one. And in addition, 15 the party directly to the north, has the exact same 16 problem. Their house is also shifted up to the north 17 lot line; and their neighbor to the north is also 18 shifted to the north lot line. So while there's never 19 any guarantee that, you know, cooperation will be 20 forth coming, I can at least, assume, that these 21 people will be more sympathetic to the situation in 22 the future; even if the home were to be sold -- if the 23 other homes were to be sold, not ours. 24 So in this case here, we are asking for
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1 the side yard setback of 13.4 foot variance to reduce 2 that point there down to 1.6 feet. Now, those three 3 variances basically get us the structure. 4 The last one, is with respect to -- you 5 know, we approached it as a finished attic, half 6 story. We met with Don, discussed with him what the 7 situation was. He explained the definition in Novi, 8 is if the roof rafters come down to the floor, it's a 9 half story. Everything under there is a half story. 10 If you raise the roof rafters off the floor, it's now 11 another story, a third story; even if the sides are 12 sloped. 13 So what we did is, we looked at what 14 would happen with a typical roof, you know, a fairly 15 steep roof that is still typical for our area with a 16 ten, 12 pitch. If we put the roof rafters right down 17 to the floor, and we had a fairly standard polotye(ph) 18 construction across the roof rafters for stiffness, 19 we'd basically have three foot six in the attic. 20 That does not solve our practical 21 hardship for having storage space and activity space 22 outside of the living room and bedrooms. 23 So what we proposed was raising these 24 roof rafters up four feet on the sides. And in the
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1 spirit of keeping the half story concept, we looked at 2 other definitions of half stories in our communities 3 -- not relevant to this case necessarily, but at least 4 in the spirit of it -- some of them are based on the 5 fact that half the square footage of that space is 6 below seven foot six; other ones are based on the fact 7 that the side wall is less than half of eight feet -- 8 less than half of a full eight foot wall, which is 9 four feet. So we did try to take those things into 10 consideration. 11 The other thing I wanted to point out 12 though is, again, when the letter came out, the 13 specific Ordinance states, two and a half stories, or 14 35 feet. We're requiring or requesting a variance to 15 that. Let me just make perfectly clear, no part of 16 this structure will be over 35 feet. We are not 17 requesting a variance; nor do we need a variance to 18 the total height of this structure, in order to build 19 this space as we're asking for. 20 There's no chimneys, no spires, no 21 antennae. There's nothing on this. There's not even 22 the peak of the roof that is going to be above 35 23 feet. So in terms of the total height of the 24 structure, we are not exceeding that.
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1 The next page or the next slide here 2 shows what essentially happens when you have a narrow 3 house. If we could build a 29 and a half foot wide 4 house, we could bring the roof rafters down to the 5 floor; and end up with exactly the same space under 6 this roof, as we're requesting now. And in reality, 7 there are very few houses probably in Novi built today 8 that are less than 30 feet wide in one dimension. 9 It's -- this is a fairly standard width. 10 In addition, if we could build this 11 house with this width, we would have exactly the same 12 roof height, relative to the base of the roof, the 13 peak, of what we're proposing, from the base of this 14 side wall to the peak, 13 feet four inches. So we are 15 not raising, again, the roof peak above what you would 16 have in a normal 30 foot wide home. 17 Okay. And the very last one I want to 18 make with regard to this, is that besides meeting our 19 practical needs to have storage space, which we just 20 can't achieve with a basement, it's just not an option 21 for this property, we feel that -- well, what we've 22 done is pushed this bump up or this raising of the 23 roof back to the farthest two-thirds of the house, 24 away from the water.
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1 So typically, the thing that people see 2 as they drive around the lake or if they're going 3 around the lake on their boats or their looking at 4 homes one evening after dinner as they go around the 5 lake, is the lake side. It's called the rear yard, 6 but this is really where people put their efforts, in 7 terms of the esthetics. And we feel that moving this 8 back, actually adds dimension to the house. It 9 certainly does not -- since it's not up in front, it's 10 not right in the face. The extra four feet is not 11 right up front. 12 In addition, if you consider how long 13 this roof is -- it's actually going to be, having this 14 stagger height adds a lot of character to it, as 15 opposed to just one long continuous roof. 16 About the only other thing I can say 17 here is that the home directly to our north, had an 18 addition built on three or four years ago. You could 19 still see it here. This room is much higher than the 20 roof of the house, the original house, that it was 21 built onto. And it's a little bit back from where 22 we're talking about, but essentially, it's the same 23 type of situation where they built an addition and 24 bumped it up.
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1 In terms of the total size of the house 2 that we ended up with, we achieve with this design, 3 our two-car attached garage. We achieved a formal 4 entry way, which the home doesn't have at this time. 5 We've achieved the extra living space we need, so we 6 can have a dining room and a living room downstairs. 7 We were able to achieve with this 8 design, having a master bedroom, as well as three 9 smaller bedrooms for our family; and we were able to 10 achieve the activity and storage space we were looking 11 for; without having to build a basement under the 12 home. 13 The total mass of the house is pretty 14 much in keeping -- if you look at the house, two 15 houses to the north, it's basically the same size, in 16 terms of length and width. The house directly to the 17 north, is a little bit shallower. It doesn't go quite 18 as far back. But if you consider the size of the 19 detached garage, it's also about the same proportion. 20 And the large home to the south, is actually much 21 bigger of a profile, on a bigger lot, as well. 22 We don't need an addition where you'll 23 notice that, even though we have five variance 24 requests on the list, we did not have to request a lot
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1 coverage variance. We actually left -- these 2 additions and changes are still only around 23 and a 3 half percent lot coverage; the legal lot coverage; not 4 including this extra area out here to the sea wall. 5 So I think with that, I'd be happy to 6 answer any questions the Board may have. 7 MEMBER GRONACHAN: Thank you. 8 Is there anyone in the audience that 9 wishes to make comment in regards to this case? 10 Please, come on down. 11 Is there anyone else? 12 Would you kindly get in line. 13 Okay. 14 MR. ZARNECK: Hi, my name is Pat 15 Zarneck. I'm the property immediately north of Tom 16 and Joyce at 1601 West Lake Drive. And you may have 17 my paperwork, with my opinion on the matter, but I 18 wanted to appear before the Board to express my 19 opinion on this. 20 My wife and I have talked with Tom and 21 Joyce at length about their plans. We've reviewed 22 their plans and drawings. And in as much as our 23 property would probably be the most significantly 24 impacted by this of any property there, we thought it
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1 wise to come before the Board. 2 We have no problem whatsoever with the 3 proposed improvements. And in fact, we totally 4 support Tom and Joyce in their requested variances. 5 MEMBER GRONACHAN: Okay. 6 Thank you. 7 Is there anyone else in the audience, 8 besides Mr. Posey? 9 MR. POSEY: Good evening, Board. 10 My name is Brian Posey and I live at 11 1523 West Lake Drive. I live five doors to the north 12 of Tom. I fully support his project. I understand 13 the concerns of the Board with the side yard setback. 14 I'd like to remind the Board, we just recently had a 15 water main installed. There are fire hydrants very 16 close to Tom's house. The area has undergone some 17 great improvements, and I think that Tom's project 18 would only enhance the City of Novi and the 19 neighborhood, and I'm fully in support. 20 Hopefully you will do that tonight, 21 also. 22 Thank you. 23 MEMBER GRONACHAN: Thank you. 24 There were 63 notices sent. Six
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1 approvals -- two that you heard, one objection. The 2 first objection from Janice Strall at 1537 West Lake 3 Drive. Ms. Strall has an objection to the variance 4 request of 11 feet, 11 feet between the house farther 5 or closer to the lake than any other house within the 6 area. This would not be an aesthetically pleasing 7 view in our neighborhood. 8 And the Petitioner has addressed all of 9 this. 10 Objection to the proposed story height 11 of three stories. Three stories would show the house 12 towering over the other houses. All houses in the 13 area are less than 35 feet. 14 Ms. Strall, I believe that the 15 Petitioner has addressed that, as well. 16 The next approval is from Rob and Lori 17 Marsek at 1631 West Lake Drive; approval from Bruce -- 18 I'm sorry, Bruce, but, B-a-r-y-a-r-d, Baryard, I 19 guess, 1715 West Lake Drive; Joanne and Nedd Aloe at 20 1529 West Lake, due to the unique shape of this lot, 21 we feel the owner should be allowed to make the 22 desired improvements, which will actually be 23 comparable and compatible with the surrounding homes. 24 And last, from Edward Lesniack at 1516
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1 Lebeta Street. This area is so old, I approve the 2 variance by way of grandfather clause. Many properties 3 here will not pass Novi standards, but have been 4 upgraded to year-round homes, but have been upgraded 5 to be year-round homes, and now are fine -- and now 6 are a fine neighborhood. 7 The variances requested, will also 8 upgrade the home at that address. 9 And then the two residents that were 10 here to speak. 11 Building Department? 12 MR. SAVEN: I can honestly say, Tom did 13 his homework. The gentleman spent a lot of time on 14 this project. As you can see, it's a very unique 15 parcel of land. He's getting rid of some obvious non- 16 conformities, in terms of the garage that's existing 17 on the property. The issue that the house is already 18 set back approximately 110 feet off the front yard 19 setback; that is kind of a difficult situation when 20 you're asking for a front yard setback variance, when 21 the situation is there already. 22 I think it was also pointed out that 23 the sea wall that's there represents a sea wall that 24 was installed some time ago. As a matter of fact,
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1 when we deal with lake front property, you deal with 2 high water table marks sometimes for rear yard setback 3 requirements. That's basically how the Ordinance 4 reads. 5 Tom had presented the fact that he had 6 done his homework in distinguishing that rear yard and 7 dealing with that rear yard as with the variance he is 8 requesting. 9 And like I said, I think he's done his 10 homework. The additional half story, we discussed 11 that possibility. What he ran into a problem with, is 12 the width of his home does not allow him to take 13 advantage of that third story application, so that's 14 why he's bringing the wall up four feet. 15 MEMBER GRONACHAN: Mr. Harvey, I think 16 regardless how this Board votes, you should teach a 17 class on how to present a case to the Zoning Board of 18 Appeals without -- throughout the State of Michigan. 19 This is a job very well done. As a matter of fact, 20 you have inspired me the next time when I send a case 21 back and say go do your homework, I hope you don't 22 mind if I add your phone number out, when they need to 23 go back and do their homework. 24 You have by far done your homework;
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1 have all your I's dotted; have all your T's crossed, 2 and regardless of what this Board votes, you need to 3 be commended. And I thank you on behalf of this 4 Board. 5 Okay. 6 Board Members? 7 Member Canup? 8 Member Canup: I'd make a Motion. 9 MEMBER GRONACHAN: Go right ahead. 10 MEMBER CANUP: That we -- in case 11 number, 04-088, filed by Mr. Tom Harvey, that we grant 12 the variances as requested. 13 MEMBER BAUER: Second. 14 Due to the uniqueness. 15 MEMBER CANUP: Due to the uniqueness of 16 the property and the hardship in the development of 17 this piece of property. 18 MEMBER BAUER: Second. 19 MEMBER GRONACHAN: Second. 20 A friendly amendment. 21 As so noted by the exquisite 22 explanation by the Petitioner that left us speechless 23 at the end of his presentation, without any further 24 questions. And that his explanation would serve the
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1 purpose, as to why these variances are so granted. 2 MEMBER CANUP: Accepted. 3 MEMBER GRONACHAN: Thank you. 4 Any further discussion? 5 Denise, please call the roll. 6 DENISE ANDERSON: Member Canup? 7 MEMBER CANUP: Yes. 8 DENISE ANDERSON: Member Bauer? 9 MEMBER BAUER: Yes. 10 DENISE ANDERSON: Member Fischer? 11 MEMBER FISCHER: Aye. 12 DENISE ANDERSON: Member Gronachan? 13 MEMBER GRONACHAN: Yes. 14 DENISE ANDERSON: Motion passes four to 15 zero. 16 MEMBER GRONACHAN: See what happened? 17 Congratulations 18 MR. HARVEY: Thank you. 19 And I can only hope the building goes 20 this smooth. 21 MEMBER GRONACHAN: At this time, at 22 9:07, I would like to call for a seven minute break 23 for the Board, and we will return at 9:14. 24 (Brief recess taken.)
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1 (Back on the record.) 2 MEMBER GRONACHAN: Okay. We are going 3 to resume the ZBA Meeting. 4 We're going to call the meeting back to 5 order, and call our next case, 04-090 filed by Tom 6 Sunderland, homeowner of 30478 Pennington Lane, in the 7 Bristol Corners North Subdivision. 8 Mr. Sunderland's requesting a three 9 foot rear yard setback variance for the construction 10 of a screened porch located at the above address. 11 Good evening. 12 Are you Mr. Sunderland? 13 MR. SUNDERLAND: Yes, I am. 14 MEMBER GRONACHAN: Would you please 15 raise your right hand to be sworn in by our secretary. 16 MEMBER BAUER: Do you solemnly swear or 17 affirm to tell the truth regarding case, 04-090? 18 MR. SUNDERLAND: I do. 19 MEMBER BAUER: Thank you, sir. 20 MEMBER GRONACHAN: Okay. 21 You can go ahead. 22 MR. SUNDERLAND: Good evening. 23 MEMBER GRONACHAN: Good evening. 24 MR. SUNDERLAND: We recently bought our
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1 second home in Novi back in April, and during -- since 2 that time, we've added a deck onto the back of the 3 house with a walk-out basement. The rear of the house 4 backs up to the Lakewood wetlands, and also Walled 5 Lake. 6 One of the things we discovered as 7 we've been there is, when the air is still outside, 8 you get quite a challenging problem with mosquito 9 situation here. And then we've also got some direct 10 sunlight issues, late morning, early afternoon. 11 I believe in your packet you have some 12 sketches of what we propose or what we're asking to 13 do. You can see in this one, we have the deck area, 14 current deck area situation. And we are proposing a 15 12 by 12 screened-in room. We need a room large 16 enough to accommodate our lawn furniture, patio 17 furniture, and four or five people, also. 18 So, this seems to be about as small as 19 we could go. We pushed it up as close to the house as 20 possible, leaving a four foot walkway here, so we can 21 get through, but the room as close as we can 22 reasonably go, I believe. But the that three foot 23 variance issue is why I'm here tonight. 24 We did get approval from the
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1 homeowner's association. We have no issue there with 2 them, which I believe is in your packet. And the 3 neighbors we had talked to had verbally told us that 4 they have no issue. I don't know if you've received 5 documentation back from them or not. 6 That's basically it. 7 Not quite as complicated as the last 8 gentleman's issue, but not quite as well present 9 maybe, either, but. 10 MEMBER GRONACHAN: Now, now. I know 11 you're trying to make the Golden Globe award, but 12 we're not awarding it until the end of the year. 13 Is there anyone in the audience that 14 wishes to make comment in regards to this case? 15 Seeing none, there were 32 notices 16 sent; one approval, and I'm sorry but I don't see the 17 homeowner's association. Is it in the file? 18 DENISE ANDERSON: Yeah. 19 MEMBER GRONACHAN: Okay. 20 DENISE ANDERSON: It's in the packet 21 that everybody received. 22 Actually, from -- 23 MEMBER GRONACHAN: (Interposing.) The 24 other approval is from Donald Luka -- Luchka, at 44462
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1 Bristol Circle(sic), please approve this gentleman's 2 request for a three foot rear yard setback variance. 3 Building Department? 4 MR. SAVEN: I'll just point out to the 5 Board on the plot plan, you'll notice that there is a 6 park that is located directly behind this property; 7 and also that projected enclosure does not extend out 8 farther than what the existing deck is. 9 MEMBER GRONACHAN: okay. 10 Thank you. 11 Board Members? 12 Member Fischer? 13 MEMBER FISCHER: I feel that this is 14 pretty -- the homeowners association said yes and the 15 surrounding neighbors say yes. And given the comments 16 that Don shared, if anyone else would like to make 17 comments, I'd like to make a Motion. 18 MEMBER GRONACHAN: Go ahead. 19 MEMBER FISCHER: I move that we grant 20 the variance requested in case number 04-090, because 21 the Petitioner established practical difficulty, given 22 that the variance will not impair the intent of the 23 Ordinance; and there's still a significant setback. 24 MEMBER BAUER: Second.
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1 MEMBER GRONACHAN: It's been moved and 2 seconded. 3 Is there any further discussion on the 4 Motion? 5 Seeing none, Denise would you please 6 call the roll. 7 DENISE ANDERSON: Member Fischer? 8 MEMBER FISCHER: Aye. 9 DENISE ANDERSON: Member Bauer? 10 MEMBER BAUER: Yes. 11 DENISE ANDERSON: Member Canup? 12 MEMBER CANUP: Yes. 13 DENISE ANDERSON: Member Gronachan? 14 MEMBER GRONACHAN: Yes. 15 DENISE ANDERSON: Motion passes four to 16 zero. 17 MEMBER GRONACHAN: See, it went just as 18 fast, so, it's all in the delivery. 19 Your variance has been granted. 20 Please see the Building Department. 21 MR. SUNDERLAND: Thank you. 22 MEMBER GRONACHAN: Thank you. 23 24 Okay. Our next case is 04-091, Sean
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1 McGreevey of Signs and Services Company, representing 2 Option One Mortgage, at 2133 Haggerty Road. Mr. 3 McGreevey is requesting a sign variance to erect a 4 ground sign at the above address between Eight and 5 Nine Mile Road. 6 Good evening. 7 Are you Mr. McGreevey? 8 MR. SCHAEFFER: No, I'm Tim Schaeffer. 9 MEMBER GRONACHAN: Okay. 10 MR. SCHAEFFER: Representative for 11 Mr. McGreevey. 12 MEMBER GRONACHAN: And you are not an 13 attorney, correct? 14 MR. SCHAEFFER: No, I'm not. 15 MEMBER GRONACHAN: Would you please 16 raise your right hand to be sworn in by our secretary. 17 MEMBER BAUER: Do you solemnly swear or 18 affirm to tell the truth regarding 04-091? 19 MR. SCHAEFFER: Yes, I do. 20 MEMBER BAUER: Thank you. 21 MEMBER GRONACHAN: Okay. 22 You can proceed. 23 MR. SCHAEFFER: We were asking for a 24 variance for the ground sign for identification for
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1 our customers. Back -- case 94-116 was approved for a 2 wall sign by the ZBA; and it's caused a lot of 3 confusion with our customers. They believe it to be 4 the Learning Group Building. The sign is up on the 5 third story. I believe it's the third story, up on 6 top of the building, which leads people to believe 7 that this is the Learning Group Building. 8 And there's just a lot of confusion 9 with where and what -- where we're located at. 10 MEMBER GRONACHAN: Okay. 11 Anything else? 12 MR. SCHAEFFER: No. That's our 13 practical difficulty. 14 MEMBER GRONACHAN: All right. 15 Is there anyone else in the audience 16 that wishes to make comment in regards to this case? 17 Seeing none, there were 12 notices 18 mailed; no approvals, no objections. 19 Building Department? 20 MR. AMOLSH: No comment. 21 MEMBER GRONACHAN: Board Members? 22 Member Canup? 23 MEMBER CANUP: Seems like a reasonable 24 request. They need some identification so people can
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1 find them. 2 MEMBER GRONACHAN: Member Fischer? 3 MEMBER FISCHER: The sign that's to the 4 north of there, that's also for 21333? That's just an 5 address sign? 6 MR. SCHAEFFER: Just an address, yes. 7 MEMBER FISCHER: Okay. 8 All right. 9 MEMBER GRONACHAN: Is there a Motion, 10 gentlemen? 11 MEMBER BAUER: I'd make a Motion in 12 case 04-091 that the variance be granted to -- for 13 identification. 14 MEMBER FISCHER: Second. 15 MEMBER GRONACHAN: It's been moved and 16 seconded. 17 Is there any further discussion on the 18 Motion? 19 Seeing none, Denise, would you please 20 call the roll. 21 DENISE ANDERSON: Member Bauer? 22 MEMBER BAUER: Yes. 23 DENISE ANDERSON: Member Fischer? 24 MEMBER FISCHER: Aye.
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1 DENISE ANDERSON: Member Canup? 2 MEMBER CANUP: Yes. 3 DENISE ANDERSON: Member Gronachan? 4 MEMBER GRONACHAN: Yes. 5 DENISE ANDERSON: Motion passes four to 6 zero. 7 MEMBER GRONACHAN: Okay. 8 Thank you. 9 MR. SCHAEFFER: Thank you. 10 MEMBER GRONACHAN: Your variance has 11 been granted. 12 MR. SCHAEFFER: Thank you. 13 MEMBER GRONACHAN: You're welcome. 14 15 Okay. Our next case is 04-094, filed 16 by Matt Fill of Oscar W. Larson Company, representing 17 Sunoco Gas Station at 43601 Grand River Avenue. 18 Mr. Fill is requesting two sign 19 variances to erect a monument sign at the above 20 address, west of Novi Road and east of Flint Road; and 21 also a height variance on the sign. 22 Are you, in fact, Mr. Fill? 23 MR. FILL: I am. 24 MEMBER GRONACHAN: Okay.
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1 You're not an attorney, correct? 2 MR. FILL: No, I am not. 3 MEMBER GRONACHAN: Okay. 4 Would you please raise your right hand 5 to be sworn in by our secretary. 6 MEMBER BAUER: Do you solemnly swear or 7 affirm to tell the truth regarding case 04-094? 8 MR. FILL: I do. 9 MEMBER BAUER: Thank you. 10 MEMBER GRONACHAN: Please proceed. 11 MR. FILL: Basically, we're requesting 12 a variance, as you mentioned. The sign, itself, is 13 already been installed, due to a miscommunication with 14 the sign installer, who was hired by Sunoco. They 15 were responsible for putting the base in. The base 16 was put there, under the assumption that it had been 17 permanent. Indeed, it wasn't. 18 We do need a front yard setback. We're 19 asking for the variance on the side yard setback. 20 It's Flint Street, which up until that point of the 21 project, had been a dirt road. We're putting in 22 gutter, paving it. The other side of that is wooded 23 area. 24 Our hardship right now at this point is
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1 we're about a week away from trying to get the station 2 open. It's our primary price sign, I.D. sign. It's 3 the only one on the site. We're trying to get 4 everything kind of buttoned up. We have a lot of 5 landscaping affecting the sign. We, indeed, are 6 required to move the sign, that means we'd have to 7 tear it down. It's on a standard foundation, doubled 8 with brick. 9 When we do or if we would have to move 10 it over -- I do have a picture here to kind of show 11 you what we're up against -- you can kind of see it 12 here -- we are basically -- five feet would put us 13 into this area. We have a retaining wall in here, 14 extensive landscaping, irrigation, already installed. 15 That's kind of the hardship we're up against at this 16 point. 17 The sign up here is our mock-up, in 18 place, and that is essentially it. 19 MEMBER GRONACHAN: Okay. 20 Is there anyone in the audience that 21 wishes to make comment in regards to this case? 22 Seeing none, there were 19 notices 23 mailed; no approvals, no objections. 24 Building Department?
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1 MR. AMOLSH: No comment. 2 MEMBER GRONACHAN: Okay. 3 Member Bauer? 4 MEMBER BAUER: You did a much better 5 job that what was there before. 6 MR. FILL: Well, we would hope so. 7 It's our intent. 8 MEMBER BAUER: I have no problem with 9 it. 10 MEMBER GRONACHAN: I feel sorry for the 11 Petitioner, you know, the owner of the company, to 12 hire a sign company thinking they would know the 13 rules. This is like the fourth or fifth sign company 14 that we've come across. They do this and then it's a 15 noose. 16 I feel better now that I said that. 17 Member Canup? 18 MEMBER CANUP: I guess I have no 19 sympathy for them. Mainly, because of the fact that a 20 professional knows better than to do what happened 21 here. And you're not going to get an approval from 22 me. It's pretty simple. 23 Any sign company, anybody in business 24 knows, the first thing you do is you go and get a
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1 permit. You just don't do it without a permit. 2 MR. FILL: Well, the arrangement here 3 is -- 4 MEMBER CANUP: I'm not arguing with 5 you. I'm just telling you that's my position. 6 MR. FILL: The arrangement here is that 7 -- 8 MEMBER CANUP: I said I wasn't arguing 9 with you, and that's my position. 10 MEMBER GRONACHAN: You need to wait for 11 the Board to get done talking. 12 MEMBER CANUP: So anyway, I guess I 13 would have a difficult time voting for this. They 14 knew what the Ordinances were. The architect who 15 designed this site should have had that sign located. 16 And as far as I'm concerned, there's no excuse for it. 17 MEMBER GRONACHAN: Anyone else? 18 Okay. 19 Member Fischer, any comments? 20 MEMBER FISCHER: I feel that the 21 requests are minimal. I feel that given the efforts 22 to do the landscaping, due to the elevation, curve, 23 grading, all that area, I feel that I would find a 24 hard time not support this.
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1 MEMBER GRONACHAN: I know how Brent 2 feels about this, because I feel the same way and I 3 give him credit for saying what's on his mind. The 4 fact that the sign companies go in and install these 5 signs in Novi, is there something that can't be done 6 about this? I mean seriously, this is four or the 7 five? 8 MR. SAVEN: Alan takes care of this 9 particular area. 10 MEMBER GRONACHAN: But I mean, you 11 know, it's not the sign company that's going to pay 12 for the tear down. It's going to be the owner of the 13 property, is it not? 14 MR. SAVEN: Ultimately it will be, yes. 15 MEMBER GRONACHAN: Okay. There's no -- 16 I mean, the sign company screwed up and installed it 17 wrong. I mean, I would just like to see some of this 18 stuff -- if there's any other businesses out there 19 listening, because this happens from time to time, and 20 we don't want to deter good quality business from our 21 city. However, sign companies should know where to 22 put the signs. And now it's going to cost the 23 Petitioner a great deal of money. 24 And the Petitioner not being the sign
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1 company, and not -- my problem is with the sign 2 company. It's not with Sunoco. 3 MEMBER CANUP: You know, being in the 4 construction business, I would suspect that the person 5 who put the sign up, will be the one that is 6 financially responsible for moving it, depending on 7 how your contract reads. 8 And again, this should have been shown 9 on the site -- the overall site plan by the architect, 10 and I don't know that it is not. But again, I still 11 have my same opinion. 12 MEMBER GRONACHAN: Member Fischer? 13 MEMBER FISCHER: I sympathize, as well, 14 and I would like to see some of these sign companies 15 held responsible. But I can't go on that emotion and 16 hold the applicant responsible for that. And there 17 are other things that go into consideration, such as, 18 the reasons he gave throughout his testimony and on 19 the application. 20 His only hardship isn't that, well, the 21 sign company messed up. It has to do with a lot of 22 other things. 23 MEMBER GRONACHAN: Well -- and that's a 24 good point. Had this sign been done the right way,
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1 prior to it being installed, would you have needed the 2 variances prior to erecting the sign? 3 MR. FILL: That's part of what I tried 4 to point out in the drawing. If we did shift it back, 5 I have issues with grading. There's a retaining wall. 6 A landscape retaining wall there. It's sitting right 7 up tight against. 8 MEMBER GRONACHAN: All right. 9 Mr. Fill, with all due respect, that 10 was during the construction. So my -- the question to 11 you is, when you went to build this whole thing and 12 the sign, would the sign have needed a variance, at 13 the time that this sign -- 14 MR. FILL: Yes. 15 MEMBER GRONACHAN: -- was put in place? 16 MR. FILL: The sign needed a variance 17 with the placement on the drawing. Is that what 18 you're asking? 19 MEMBER GRONACHAN: Okay. 20 MR. FILL: This drawing right here kind 21 of shows -- 22 MEMBER GRONACHAN: You're telling us 23 that that sign could go no other place but there. And 24 because it's going there, you put the sign up, and
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1 because it has to go there, this is why I need the 2 variance -- if the sign was not erected already. 3 MR. FILL: Well, there's the issue with 4 landscaping. I'd have to get either the approval to 5 eliminate plantings, move plantings. We have a 6 landscape plan that's been approved, an irrigation 7 plan. Those types of things. 8 I'm not kind of stuck. Do I -- if I do 9 tear the sign down, then how do I effect those 10 approvals for plantings and trees and so forth out 11 front? I've got to go back to the City consultant, I 12 believe. 13 MEMBER FISCHER: And personally, I'd 14 rather see the plantings, than just space. I think it 15 looks classy. I think this looks much better with the 16 landscaping. 17 MEMBER GRONACHAN: Mr. Schmitt, I need 18 to ask you. How did this happen? Did this come to 19 us? Did we see this? 20 MR. SCHMITT: The Planning Department 21 does not review locations of signs. All our letter 22 specifically state that sign -- you'll have to go 23 through the normal approval process. I can tell you, 24 though, we do review landscaping around the sign,
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1 because -- and I have seen plans directly. But my 2 guess is really close to the 25 foot clear vision 3 triangle, that our landscaping architecture requires 4 at all intersections. 5 So we would have called out at least 6 pushing on that, because due to the requirement and 7 maximum height of the plantings in that area. 8 Now in terms of if he needed to move 9 it, does it affect landscaping, not particularly. 10 It's just going to slide the landscaping -- you're 11 basically going to switch places. As long as the 12 plantings are still in the relative location, and when 13 we go out there and inspect, as long as they're there 14 and they're healthy -- 15 MEMBER GRONACHAN: Okay. 16 Let me go back to Mr. Canup for a 17 minute. 18 Given the circumstances and the fact 19 that we -- he'd be back here anyway to get a variance, 20 I feel that -- even though I can support your 21 frustration, and I'm voicing to this end of the table 22 -- that in the future when those signs come up at the 23 Planning area, that this kind of thing should never 24 happen again.
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1 Someone should catch it, whosever out 2 there listening to me. 3 I feel that this is a major expense to 4 the owner, and I feel that this is a major faux pas, 5 and I do not want to set a precedence in Novi; new 6 construction and new businesses putting signs up where 7 they feel it is important. And the reason I say that 8 is, because we've had a couple here this evening, 9 already installed, expense is done. 10 So somewhere out there in construction 11 land, the point's not getting across. However, we 12 have to view this case. 13 And I'm tending -- I lean to approving 14 this, based on the fact that it came -- it did come 15 back in front of us anyways, if they do what we ask 16 them to do, they're going to need the variance at any 17 rate. And I don't feel like making this particular 18 Petitioner be the sacrificial lamb tonight. 19 Member Canup? 20 MEMBER CANUP: You heard my opinion 21 MEMBER GRONACHAN: Okay. 22 MEMBER CANUP: And that's the way I'll 23 vote. 24 MR. SAVEN: Madam Chair?
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1 MEMBER GRONACHAN: Yes. 2 MR. SAVEN: I just want to point out, 3 this particular site has been probably one of the most 4 difficult sites we've ever had to deal with in the 5 development of this particular building. God knows I 6 don't know how many hours I spent on just the flood 7 plane areas on this particular site. I will tell you 8 this, that we know that there were difficulties with 9 the Grand River improvements came into play, 10 elevations of the road, the Flint Street paving. All 11 of these particular issues were issues regarding this 12 particular site. And in -- almost in the practical 13 application, where that road was going to basically 14 end up. That was a very difficult scenario. 15 So with that in mind, I'm not giving 16 excuses. That's not what I'm here to tell you. I'm 17 just going to tell you this was a very difficult site. 18 And the reason for that retaining wall was basically 19 because they had to maintain certain elevations. So 20 naturally where the sign was at, was not picked up for 21 the setback required, but it still needs to have a 22 variance. 23 MEMBER GRONACHAN: Mr. Fill, if this 24 goes to a vote and there's only four members, you're
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1 obviously not going to pass. That's option one. 2 Option two is you can table it until next month, when 3 we have a full Board and represent your case to all of 4 the members at the table. 5 And there's no guarantee, correct. But 6 it would give you more members to reappeal your case 7 to, and we would have six members to vote, instead of 8 four, and it would take -- 9 MR. FILL: At this point -- this is the 10 owner, Mr. Matle(ph), of the site. 11 MR. MATLE: Good evening. My name is 12 Allen Matle. I'm the current developer of the site 13 and the operator. I'm not the current owner of the 14 property. 15 I'd just like to make a small 16 statement. And I do agree with Mr. Canup, but I think 17 the biggest issue was, where we have the real problem, 18 the grading on this site initially on the plans. We 19 were under the assumption, the initial plans had the 20 sign where it is today, where the base was. And we 21 followed those approved site plans, and we built the 22 base where we felt the sign was approved already. 23 We weren't even aware of the variances 24 that were required based on the grading and the right-
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1 of-way from Novi. So we just built that base when we 2 did our footings and everything else, with the 3 concrete. And then the sign people just came up and 4 put the actual dummy sign there for us to see. 5 And that's when we realized that we 6 needed a variance on the sign. And the actual sign, 7 itself, today, is the only sign on the site. And as 8 you can see, if you've driven down Novi, you'll see -- 9 Grand River, you'll see how far the sign is back. 10 Even where it's at today, is very hard for anyone to 11 see, until they actually come up to me. 12 I spent over a million dollars on that 13 site. I can't really stand here and say that's 14 Mr. Canup's problem, but I have spent a large amount 15 of money on that site, and I still feel that's the 16 only side that's going to give me a half a prayer of 17 succeeding on that site. And it still sits too far 18 back. 19 MEMBER GRONACHAN: Well, sir, excuse me 20 for interrupting one second. Pleading your case this 21 evening, I believe that you're doing it to at least on 22 deaf ear at this point. My suggestion is to table it 23 until next month and bring it back to a full Board. 24 We need four votes to pass it, and you already have
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1 one that's going to vote against it. 2 Now, I'm giving you the option to table 3 it. Because if we vote on it tonight, it will be 4 denied. 5 MR. FILL: And then our other option is 6 to tear the sign down and try to make it work onto the 7 site. 8 MEMBER GRONACHAN: That's always an 9 option. 10 MR. FILL: Well, this again is a great 11 hardship. The owner's been trying to get this site 12 done. A gas station without a price on it -- 13 MEMBER GRONACHAN: Sir, I understand. 14 You've stated your case very clearly. I'm not trying 15 to be difficult, but please, my hands are tied -- 16 MR. FILL: We have no other option -- 17 MEMBER GRONACHAN: -- I don't have a 18 magic wand under this table. 19 My suggestion -- and being that, as the 20 Chair, I'm going to suggest that you table this. I'm 21 not suggesting that you tear the sign down. And as 22 soon as you walk away from this podium and you take 15 23 minutes to think this through, you're going to go, you 24 know, I should have just tabled that case.
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1 MR. FILL: It's -- we don't need to 2 table it. We need to table it. 3 MEMBER GRONACHAN: All right. 4 All those in favor of tabling this case 5 until October, say aye? 6 BOARD MEMBERS: Aye. 7 MEMBER GRONACHAN: Aye. 8 We'll see you next month with a full 9 Board. 10 MR. FILL: Okay. 11 Thank you. 12 13 MEMBER GRONACHAN: Okay. Calling our 14 last case, 04-096 filed by Ron Nuechterlein of 15 Superior Diversified Services Corp for Novi Site, at 16 26203. 17 Mr. Nuechterlein was in front of this 18 Board last month and he's resubmitting his plans with 19 a request for new -- fewer variances. The applicant 20 is requesting two side yard parking lot set back 21 variances of 15 feet on the north side, and 20 feet on 22 the south side. A 478 square foot interior parking 23 lot landscape variance; a four foot green space 24 variance on the south side of the building; and a
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1 variance to eliminate the loading zone. 2 The building is zoned TC, and it's 3 located west of Novi Road. 4 Usually, as soon as you're done, 5 somebody's out there. 6 MR. HYMAN: We just wanted the dust to 7 settle, Madam Chair. 8 MEMBER GRONACHAN: Okay. 9 Thank you. 10 That's always good. 11 Good evening, and you are? 12 MR. HYMAN: I'm Norman Hyman. I'm the 13 attorney for the applicant, and the owner of the 14 property, George Cares. 15 With me, Mr. Cares; George Norburg, our 16 engineer; and Ron Nuechterlein, the site development 17 manager. 18 I assume you want to swear them in. 19 MEMBER GRONACHAN: You're lucky because 20 you were sworn in last month, and I'm going to make a 21 note of it, that it is a carry-over; is that correct? 22 Even though the case was denied, it will carry over 23 this month. 24 You were all sworn in.
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1 MR. HYMAN: Thank you. 2 And to carry on in that spirit, I would 3 hope that you would consider the record developed to 4 date as part of tonight's record, so we don't have to 5 repeat it. 6 Thank you very much. 7 MEMBER GRONACHAN: All in favor of 8 that. 9 Thank you very much, given the hour. 10 MR. HYMAN: We'll try to be very short. 11 Mr. Schmitt from the Planning 12 Department made a recommendation that would 13 substantially reduce the variances requested. The 14 matter which that would be done was to again reduce 15 the building. It had been reduced in size once from 16 3186 by 354 feet, knocking three feet off of the north 17 side of the building; thus creating a four foot 18 setback where there had been a one foot setback. 19 The result is that the new building is 20 2832 feet in area. It's a small building. I'm not 21 going to repeat the problems that we've had with this 22 extremely narrow site. We believe that it's the best 23 that can be done. We think we've adequately 24 demonstrated hardship.
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1 We'll be happy to answer any questions. 2 Thank you. 3 MEMBER GRONACHAN: Thank you. 4 Is there anyone in the audience that 5 wishes to make comment in regards to this case? 6 Okay. 7 And you are? 8 MR. GRECO: Greg Greco. 9 MEMBER GRONACHAN: I'm sorry? 10 MR. GRECO: Greg Greco from Stanton and 11 Associates, 7141 West Michigan Avenue. I'm standing 12 in for Randy Israel. 13 MEMBER GRONACHAN: Okay. And you are 14 an attorney? 15 MR. GRECO: I am not an attorney. 16 MEMBER GRONACHAN: Okay. 17 I will remind you this evening that -- 18 we don't need to swear you in -- but I will remind you 19 this evening that there is a five minute rule for 20 audience participation at this time; and that you can 21 begin. 22 MR. GRECO: Okay. 23 Thank you very much. 24 Just Mr. Israel wanted me to say that
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1 when he talked to Denise, Denise was under the 2 impression that there had been dialog between us and 3 them. There has not been, and it's been stated. And 4 Mr. Israel just wanted me to restate it. The letter 5 we sent out, we still have the objections. 6 MEMBER GRONACHAN: Okay. 7 MR. GRECO: That's it. 8 MEMBER GRONACHAN: Thank you. 9 Sir, do you have anything to offer at 10 this time? 11 You're not speaking, okay. 12 Mr. Schmitt, do you have anything to 13 offer? 14 I'm sorry. Before you get into that, 15 we'll just do this. 16 There were 32 notices -- 33 notices 17 sent; no approvals, one objection. The objection's 18 from Mr. Israel. This is a very lengthy objection, 19 and it's already a matter of public record. And for 20 time sake and the fact that this is several pages, I 21 will not go into it at this time. 22 However, I will call on the Building 23 Department and Planning Department. 24 MR. SAVEN: Madam Chair --
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1 MEMBER GRONACHAN: Yes. 2 MR. SAVEN: -- and Members of the 3 Board. At the last meeting, it was definitely 4 explained. There were several variances that were in 5 need. And at that particular time, at the direction 6 of the Board, I did get with Tim Schmitt in the 7 Planning Department and address those particular 8 concerns of the Board. And -- was there possibly 9 anything that can be done to reduce the number of 10 variances. 11 And Mr. Schmitt followed up with a 12 letter to me, which the Board has a copy of. I'll let 13 him explain those variances that were reduced, based 14 upon Tim's review of the meeting with the members. 15 MR. SCHMITT: You guys know if I'm 16 here, there's something good happening. So let me go 17 through what the Planning Department has suggested at 18 this point. Our -- just so you can realize, this is 19 going to be a difficult project. This is really the 20 last step in the approval process, if the Board so 21 decides to do so this evening. 22 One of the main issues that both 23 traffic planning, and to some extent, fire department 24 was concerned with, is parking in the front yard.
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1 That's one of the variances that's in front of you. 2 This variance was very easily eliminated in two ways. 3 One, by sliding everything two feet to the west, which 4 was pretty easily done; and two, by eliminating three 5 feet off the north south width of the building. 6 The square footage was such that that 7 parking space was no longer required. So that 8 variance is eliminated. 9 By reducing the building by three feet, 10 north to south, we then add four feet along the north; 11 four feet existed along the east; and four feet was 12 existing on the west, with a minor configuration. 13 Therefore, that variance was reduced to only not 14 having four feet of landscaping along the south side 15 of the building. 16 By eliminating the loading zone, you 17 eliminate the issue of the setback of the loading zone 18 and the screening of the loading zone. In addition, 19 you also gain a little bit of parking, which reduced 20 that variance, as well. 21 The only two variances that really area 22 immutable at this point, are the parking lot setback 23 in the north and south, with the 24 foot wide 24 maneuvering lane and 20 feet of setback on either
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1 side, you're already over the width of the property, 2 without any actual parking, along your parking lot. 3 So that's our suggestion. It's been 4 our suggestion really all along, to try to manipulate 5 it a little bit to provide lesser variances. I have 6 taken a look at the request for Mr. Israel of Wendy's. 7 And initial reaction, it's going to have much the same 8 problem that you have in front of you this evening. 9 What it's going to change from a site development 10 standpoint -- I understand what it's going to change 11 in their mind from a visibility standpoint and from an 12 accessibility standpoint. 13 What it changes from a site development 14 standpoint is the secondary access, even just being 15 the break-away gate, would essentially be eliminated 16 by sliding the building to the rear. There's really 17 no other place to put it at that point, that would 18 even come close to the giving the fire department the 19 ability -- the fire department to get in. 20 Not that it's a great situation now, 21 but it's workable. And two, you have to put a 22 dumpster in the front yard, which frankly we're trying 23 to avoid at all cost. You'd still have to get a 24 variance for the parking lot setback. You'd still
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1 likely have to get a variance to eliminate the loading 2 zone. The landscaping variances have changed 3 slightly. You may be able to eliminate the four foot 4 variance. It could be around the building. 5 The parking lot landscaping is still 6 going to be there, just by nature of the site. And 7 perhaps, more importantly, the Planning Department 8 will definitely send the project back to the Planning 9 Commission for a new site plan. 10 It's a pretty substantial change from 11 what the Planning Commission saw originally. And our 12 rule of thumb basically is, if they're going to see 13 something different on the ground than what they saw 14 on the plan, then they're going to notice it and we're 15 going to send it back. 16 So if the Board's direction was to move 17 towards that, we would definitely be sending it back 18 to the Planning Commission. But our current proposal 19 is what we've outlined in our memo. They're still 20 going to need a pretty substantial (unintelligible), 21 and I think we're pretty comfortable in saying that 22 this is probably the best that we can do at this 23 point, given the previous (unintelligible) regarding 24 the variances.
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1 I'd be happy to answer any questions, 2 if you have them. 3 MEMBER GRONACHAN: Thank you. 4 Board Members? 5 I'll pipe up. 6 I have something to say. 7 I would like to note that -- for the 8 record, and for my fellow Board Members, that Mr. 9 Israel did write a letter, and it is in the file, and 10 he was -- there was an error, an internal error at 11 Wendy's. 12 He did find out that the Petitioner 13 did, in fact, try to contact Wendy's. For some 14 reason, Mr. Israel was not aware of it. So there was 15 a contact made. 16 I'll clarify that for the record. 17 Yes, Member Canup? 18 MEMBER CANUP: I think in light of the 19 fact that, you know, if you look at this piece of 20 property, it is a very difficult piece of property to 21 develop, if not practically impossible. However, I 22 think it is -- there is a hardship that it is 23 basically undevelopable within the Ordinances. And it 24 does have to be an opportunity for this Petitioner or
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1 owner of the property to be able to use the property 2 in some fashion. 3 And I think with the work the 4 Petitioner has done and the work that the Building 5 Department has done with it, that I don't see what 6 could be done more to make this property somewhat 7 usable. 8 You'd have to be reasonable in the fact 9 that, you know, they are going to have to have 10 variances. This property is 55 feet wide, it's fairly 11 deep. It's very unfortunate that this property ever 12 got split off, but it was done considerably -- many 13 years ago. And that's the way it was when it was done 14 in the 50's or 40's, whenever it was done. And nobody 15 ever dreamed at that time that Novi Road or Novi would 16 be what it is today. 17 So, unfortunately we inherited it or 18 the owner who bought this inherited it. It is the 19 City, and I guess it was done back when it was -- in 20 the Township days. So anyway, I think with all the 21 work that's gone into this and the give and take done 22 on the part of the Petitioner and the Building 23 Department, that we need to -- my opinion is we need 24 to look at this in a very positive way.
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1 I think from what I can understand he's 2 done all that can be done to develop this piece of 3 property with a minimal impact, and I would support a 4 Motion or make a Motion -- if somebody wanted me to, 5 to grant the variance as requested. 6 MEMBER GRONACHAN: Member Fischer? 7 MEMBER FISCHER: I just wanted to echo 8 Member Canup's comments. And I'm just glad to see -- 9 I hope that's not me. I forgot to read 10 the rules. I apologize to everyone. 11 -- I'm glad to see this went back to 12 the drawing board, and I want to commend the Planner 13 for his efforts into this, in lowering the number and 14 the extent of these variances. I'm glad to see more 15 landscaping, as well. That was one of my main 16 concerns. 17 And with that, I'd be willing to make a 18 Motion, as well, if comments are done. 19 MEMBER GRONACHAN: Member Bauer? 20 MEMBER BAUER: One thing. I think the 21 cooperation in both the Petitioner and the Building 22 Department and the Planning Department, everybody 23 getting together brought this to a head. And I think 24 you all deserve a grand job done, because I'm for it
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1 also. 2 MEMBER GRONACHAN: You took the words 3 right out of my mouth, you did. Are you reading my 4 notes or what? 5 I don't have any more gold stars to 6 hand out. I do. I'm impressed, that a little effort 7 that was made, or a lot of effort in this particular 8 case was done. And again, I said it earlier and I say 9 it again, when we send people back to the drawing 10 board, it's because we know there's another vision out 11 there. We, in no way, shape or form want to be 12 uncooperative, or have anyone not be able to use their 13 property. It's their property. 14 And when we take the time to say, this 15 is just a little too much, that's because under the 16 Zoning Board of Appeals, we need to look for less, 17 lesser variances. That is what we do. And that's 18 what our job is. So I echo the comments of all of my 19 fellow Board Members, and I will be supporting this 20 Motion, as well, and I believe Member Fischer wanted 21 to make a Motion, and so I will let him do that. 22 MEMBER FISCHER: Did you want to make a 23 Motion? 24 MEMBER CANUP: I did, because that was
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1 the Motion -- 2 MEMBER FISCHER: I'm sorry. 3 MEMBER CANUP: I would make a Motion 4 that in case number 04-096, that we grant the 5 variances as requested. 6 MEMBER BAUER: Second. 7 MEMBER FISCHER: Friendly amendment? 8 MEMBER CANUP: Friendly amendment, 9 possibly accepted. 10 MEMBER FISCHER: I would just like to 11 point out the reasons why, given that the Petitioner 12 has established a practical difficulty; Petitioner has 13 shown an effort to reduce the variances, given that 14 unique circumstances regarding the narrowness and area 15 of the property; given the failure to grant would be 16 unnecessarily burdensome, and possibly show that the 17 building -- or property would then be economically 18 unbuildable. 19 And given the reduction in variances, 20 has increased health, safety and welfare concerns; 21 that were many of the reasons why we denied this last 22 month. 23 MEMBER BAUER: Here, here. 24 MEMBER GRONACHAN: Okay.
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1 Is there any further -- 2 MEMBER CANUP: Accepted. 3 MEMBER GRONACHAN: Is there any further 4 discussion on the Motion? 5 Seeing none, Denise, would you please 6 call the roll. 7 DENISE ANDERSON: Member Canup? 8 MEMBER CANUP: Yes. 9 DENISE ANDERSON: Member Fischer? 10 MEMBER FISCHER: Aye. 11 DENISE ANDERSON: Member Bauer? 12 MEMBER BAUER: Yes. 13 DENISE ANDERSON: Member Gronachan? 14 MEMBER GRONACHAN: Yes. 15 DENISE ANDERSON: Motion passes four to 16 zero. 17 MR. HYMAN: Thank you very much. 18 MEMBER GRONACHAN: Good luck to you. 19 MR. HYMAN: I just want to state for 20 the record, we appreciate Mr. Israel clearing the 21 record up and acknowledging that we did attempt to 22 contact Wendy's. For the record, there were more than 23 one contact, there really was. Not from us, but also 24 from the fire department to discuss the location of
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1 the building, the break-away gate, etc. We wanted 2 that to be on the record. 3 We didn't want anyone to believe that 4 we had not made an attempt to discuss this matter. 5 MR. GRECO: Can I just say one thing? 6 MEMBER GRONACHAN: We're all set. The 7 case has been heard. 8 We're done. Thank you very much. 9 10 DENISE ANDERSON: Thank you. 11 And we have other matters. 12 One other matter. 13 MEMBER BAUER: Yeah. 14 DENISE ANDERSON: We have one other 15 matter, the 2005 schedule for the ZBA Meeting. 16 MEMBER GRONACHAN: Oh, yeah. 17 DENISE ANDERSON: I gave everybody 18 their handout. 19 MEMBER GRONACHAN: I need to explain. 20 We started but we didn't have enough time. 21 One of the things that I will cover 22 next month, with regard to the Board Members that are 23 here, is in light of what happened over the last 24 couple weeks, we need a handle on when there's not
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1 going to be enough members at the table. 2 And the reason why is because it's not 3 going to be a full board. We have some cases that are 4 coming back. What Denise does, is she calls them and 5 gives them a heads up that it's not going to be a full 6 board. Instead of going through all the work with 7 notification and everything, she tables them. 8 So it's less the cost. It's less the 9 time, and it's less the efforts. So if we already 10 know up front that we're only going to have four 11 members at the table that particular month, say in 12 January, then when those cases come up -- the larger 13 cases -- are given the option to move to the next 14 month. It just cuts down on the work load. 15 MEMBER BAUER: Whatever suits you. 16 MEMBER GRONACHAN: Okay 17 MEMBER CANUP: Looking at this, I can 18 tell you right now, I'll be out of town February and 19 March. 20 MEMBER GRONACHAN: Okay. 21 MEMBER CANUP: You can make a note of 22 that. 23 And if it affects things -- 24 MEMBER GRONACHAN: You can't go.
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1 Then you just can't go. 2 MEMBER CANUP: Okay, okay. 3 MEMBER BAUER: You can fly back. 4 DENISE ANDERSON: It's actually to set 5 the dates for the calendar that's going to go out. 6 MEMBER GRONACHAN: Right. 7 See, because that's the only thing, in 8 January and February, if we find that there's going to 9 be that shortage, we can actually, this far ahead, 10 could move the date, and it wouldn't be the big time 11 and the big expense involved, that there is once it's 12 -- you know, our meeting date isn't necessarily 13 written in stone. It better services the Petitioners. 14 MEMBER BAUER: Once in my few years on 15 the Board we were not able to get four. Only three. 16 We cancelled that meeting. 17 MEMBER GRONACHAN: Right. 18 Well, I'm hoping that we don't have to 19 ever have to do that. So that's what we're -- 20 MR. SAVEN: For matters of the dates of 21 the meetings, you need to get this for the calendars. 22 Looking at this, there are two actual times, July 5th 23 and July 12th; and September 6th and September 13th. 24 MEMBER GRONACHAN: Well, to be honest
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1 with you right now -- 2 MEMBER BAUER: The 12th would be 3 better. 4 MEMBER GRONACHAN: -- the 12th would be 5 better in July; and in September, the week after the 6 holiday. 7 DENISE ANDERSON: I agree. 8 MEMBER GRONACHAN: Those two right off 9 the bat. 10 DENISE ANDERSON: Okay. 11 MR. SAVEN: And then, of course, the 12 election coming up, November 8th. 13 All right. That gives us direction, 14 something to put in the calendar. 15 MEMBER GRONACHAN: That completes my 16 wish, that way we don't have to be working on a 17 holiday weekend. 18 DENISE ANDERSON: There you go. 19 MEMBER GRONACHAN: Is there any other 20 issues or matters to be discussed at this time? 21 Then I would -- anyone who wants to 22 support a Motion to adjourn the meeting? 23 MEMBER BAUER: Adjourned. 24 MEMBER FISCHER: Yes.
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1 MEMBER GRONACHAN: Aye. 2 Okay. It's so moved. 3 Thank you. 4 Then I would thereby adjourn the ZBA 5 Meeting. 6 (The meeting was adjourned 7 at 10:04 p.m.) 8 - - - - - - - 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24
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1 C__E__R__T__I__F__I__C__A__T__E_ 2 3 I do hereby certify that I have 4 recorded stenographically the proceedings had and testimony 5 taken in the above-entitled matter at the time and place 6 hereinbefore set forth, and that the foregoing is a full, 7 true and correct transcript of proceedings had in the 8 above-entitled matter; and I do further certify that the 9 foregoing transcript, consisting of (130) typewritten 10 pages, is a true and correct transcript of my said 11 stenograph notes. 12 13 14 ________________________________________ 15 Machelle R. Billingslea-Moore, Reporter. 16 17 __________ 18 Date 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
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