| View Agenda for this meeting View Action Summary for this meeting REGULAR MEETING -- ZONING BOARD OF APPEALS Proceedings had and testimony taken in the matters of the ZONING BOARD OF APPEALS at City of Novi, 45175 West Ten Mile Road, Novi, Michigan, on Tuesday, May 4, 2004. PRESENT: ALSO PRESENT: REPORTED BY: 1 Novi, Michigan 2 Tuesday, May 4, 2004 3 At 7:30 p.m. 4 - - - - - 5 MEMBER GRONACHAN: We're going to call 6 the Zoning Board of Appeals Meeting to order. 7 Denise, would you please call the roll. 8 DENISE ANDERSON: Member Bauer? 9 MEMBER BAUER: Present. 10 DENISE ANDERSON: Member Brennan? 11 MEMBER BRENNAN: Here. 12 DENISE ANDERSON: Member Canup? 13 MEMBER CANUP: Here. 14 DENISE ANDERSON: Member Gray? 15 MEMBER GRAY: Present. 16 DENISE ANDERSON: Member Gronachan? 17 MEMBER GRONACHAN: Here. 18 DENISE ANDERSON: Member Sanghvi? 19 MEMBER SANGHVI: Here. 20 DENISE ANDERSON: Member Fischer? 21 MEMBER FISCHER: Here. 22 DENISE ANDERSON: Everyone is present. 23 MEMBER GRONACHAN: Thank you. 24 The Zoning Board of Appeals is a Hearing 3
1 Board hired by the Novi City Charter to hear appeals 2 seeking variances through the application of the Novi 3 Zoning Ordinance. It takes the Board -- at least four 4 members to approve a variance request, and a vote of 5 the majority of the members present to deny a variance. 6 We have a full Board this evening. 7 In regard to the agenda, are there any 8 changes? 9 There are no changes to the agenda. 10 All those in favor of this evening's 11 agenda say aye? 12 MEMBERS: Aye. 13 MEMBER GRONACHAN: I will also back here 14 a minute and just note to the audience that there is a 15 set of rules of conduct on the agenda this evening. Do 16 you have a copy? I would ask that everyone please turn 17 off their cell phones and pagers during the meeting. 18 Minutes? We do have the March Minutes. 19 Are there any changes? 20 MEMBER BAUER: There's a change on page 21 seven. It says move to approve, that should be 22 changed. 23 MEMBER GRONACHAN: At this time, I would 24 like anyone in the audience who has any comments 4
1 referencing any matters that are not in front of the 2 Board this evening, if they wish to speak to the Board 3 -- 4 MEMBER BRENNAN: Do you want to approve 5 the Minutes? 6 MEMBER GRONACHAN: I'm sorry. 7 Sure we can. 8 All those in favor of the Minutes, say 9 aye? 10 MEMBERS: Aye. 11 MEMBER GRONACHAN: Minutes approved for 12 March. 13 Now, anyone in the audience who wishes 14 to approach the Board in regards to a subject that is 15 not in front of the Board this evening, can do so now? 16 Is there anyone in the audience that 17 wishes to speak on anything other than what's in front 18 of the Board this evening? 19 Seeing none, we'll go ahead and call our 20 first case. 21 Case Number: 04-023, filed by Brent 22 Breshears for a home at 1395 East Lake Drive. 23 Mr. Breshears is back from last month. He's requesting 24 two variances. 5
1 Mr. Breshears, you were sworn in last 2 month, and you're still under oath. 3 MR. BRESHEARS: Great. 4 You've got all the plans in front of you 5 submitted, plus some letters of recommendation or 6 approvals from the adjacent owner. 7 I was just going to open up the Panel 8 for questions from the Board. 9 MEMBER GRONACHAN: So you have nothing 10 to add this evening. 11 MR. BRESHEARS: Correct. 12 MEMBER GRONACHAN: All right. 13 Is there anyone in the audience that 14 wishes to speak to the Board in regards to this 15 matter? 16 Seeing none, there were 42 notices 17 mailed; four approvals; no objections; three letters 18 returned. 19 Building Department? 20 MR. SAVEN: Mr. Breshears and myself had 21 a conversation right after our last meeting, in which 22 he had -- he was before you with several requests for 23 variances. 24 Basically, we just took a look at what 6
1 the Board had been requesting, to reduce the number of 2 variances and try to come up with something a little 3 more reasonable for this particular garage. And this 4 is what he has presented to you today, with two 5 variances that are before you; instead -- I believe we 6 had a total of five variances the previous time. And 7 definitely a reduction in the building, itself. 8 MEMBER GRONACHAN: Thank you. 9 Board Members? 10 Member Gray? 11 MEMBER GRAY: Well, since you did what 12 we asked you to do, I want to thank you. 13 And if a Motion's in order, I'd be happy 14 to make such a Motion. 15 MEMBER BRENNAN: I have a question. 16 MEMBER GRONACHAN: Member Brennan? 17 MEMBER BRENNAN: Is the residence to the 18 -- well, next door to the driveway, is that part of 19 your approvals? 20 MR. BRESHEARS: Yes. David Hall. He 21 sent a letter. 22 MEMBER BRENNAN: Okay. 23 I don't see any letters. 24 You've got letters? 7
1 MEMBER GRONACHAN: His name is David 2 Hall? 3 MR. BRESHEARS: Correct. 4 MEMBER GRONACHAN: Yes. 5 MEMBER BRENNAN: Fine. 6 Thank you. 7 MEMBER GRONACHAN: Anything further 8 before Member Gray makes her Motion? 9 Go ahead. 10 MEMBER GRAY: In the matter of case 04- 11 023, move to approve the variance requested, because 12 Mr. Breshears has shown that he can ask for less 13 variances to accomplish what he feels he needs to do. 14 MEMBER BAUER: So moved. 15 MEMBER GRONACHAN: The Motion's been 16 moved and seconded. 17 Is there any further discussion on the 18 Motion? 19 Seeing none, Denise, will you please 20 call the roll. 21 DENISE ANDERSON: Member Gray? 22 MEMBER GRAY: Yes. 23 DENISE ANDERSON: Member Bauer? 24 MEMBER BAUER: Yes. 8
1 DENISE ANDERSON: Member Brennan? 2 MEMBER BRENNAN: Yes. 3 DENISE ANDERSON: Member Canup? 4 MEMBER CANUP: Yes. 5 DENISE ANDERSON: Member Gronachan? 6 MEMBER GRONACHAN: Yes. 7 DENISE ANDERSON: Member Sanghvi? 8 MEMBER SANGHVI: Yes. 9 DENISE ANDERSON: Motion passes six to 10 zero. 11 MEMBER GRONACHAN: Your variances have 12 been granted. 13 MR. BRESHEARS: Thank you. 14 MEMBER GRONACHAN: You can see the 15 Building Department. 16 Thank you. 17 MR. BRESHEAERS: Great. 18 MEMBER GRONACHAN: Okay. Our next case 19 is 04-029, filed by Mike Ellithorpe of Bill Carr Signs 20 for Boston Market at 43363 Crescent Boulevard. 21 Mr. Ellithorpe is representing Boston 22 Market, requesting one sign variance, to erect one 23 additional ground sign at the restaurant. 24 Are you Mr. Ellithorpe? 9
1 MR. ELLITHORPE: Yes. 2 MEMBER GRONACHAN: Would you please 3 raise your right hand and be sworn in by our secretary? 4 MEMBER BAUER: Do you solemnly swear or 5 affirm to tell the truth regarding case 04-029? 6 MR. ELLITHORPE: Yes, I do. 7 MEMBER BAUER: Thank you. 8 MEMBER GRONACHAN: Go ahead. 9 MR. ELLITHORPE: Thank you. 10 I appreciate the opportunity tonight to 11 be here. We are requesting a variance for a 12 directional sign. I'm of the understanding now that it 13 is considered a ground sign, once it's away from the 14 actual entrance to the driveway. 15 There's a lot of problems Boston Market 16 is seeing. When we first came here to get the ID sign 17 out front, that was approved; they're still having 18 problems with people trying to find where the driveway 19 is. 20 Two -- of course you know, there's two 21 turn lanes coming off of Novi Road there, and there's 22 no entrance right there, so it's just people are having 23 a little problem finding -- to go back around there. 24 Now this is people that's come in over the years, I 10
1 guess, is what I will have to say there and suggested 2 this. 3 As you can see, the sign is only around 4 a little over three square feet. It's a small sign. 5 It's not a real noticeable sign, but enough just so the 6 logo is there, for people to know that -- and the arrow 7 there point back that way. We didn't want anything 8 obtrusive looking out there, of course. 9 But basically, that's the problem we're 10 having, is people find the driveway, that sets even 11 farther back off the south of the property there. 12 So I'd be more than happy to answer any 13 questions you do have at this time. 14 MEMBER GRONACHAN: Okay. 15 Thank you. 16 Is there anyone in the audience that 17 wishes to approach the Board in regards to this case? 18 Seeing none, there were 31 notices sent; 19 no approvals; no objections. 20 Building Department? 21 MR. SAVEN: Only that this case was 22 brought to you one time before, at which time he asked 23 for additional signage on this particular site. And 24 the sign variance was granted for that additional sign. 11
1 MEMBER GRONACHAN: Okay. 2 Board Members? 3 MEMBER SANGHVI: I just have one 4 question. 5 How long have you had this sign up? 6 MR. ELLITHORPE: Well, unfortunately -- 7 and I'll be more than happy to answer that for you -- I 8 take full responsibility myself for the 9 misunderstanding I had in this sign. The building 10 inspector told us we could have directional signs. I 11 misunderstood that we could only have the one. 12 We kept them in compliance, and when -- 13 these signs came from a company out of Texas, we were 14 just the installer. I did not understand at that time 15 that we couldn't have one out at the road. That's my 16 mistake, that I did not listen properly and get the 17 right information I should had. 18 The -- there was a violation, I 19 understand, and we paid for that. And the reason it's 20 taken so long to get here -- I'd like to address that, 21 if I can, too -- the -- back in December when we did 22 the full permit for the one sign that was up, my father 23 went to the University of Michigan Hospital; was in 24 there for over a month -- at the end of December 12
1 through the end of January. 2 He was in and out of ICU in that. And 3 then our boss found out in January that he had cancer; 4 since passed away April 16th. 5 We're not a large company, so I was 6 helping do a lot of the work around the company and 7 that. And it's still my fault for not tending to this 8 matter prior to. And I'll take full responsibility for 9 that, for not handling it sooner than that. 10 The sign had been up originally since -- 11 we did put -- we had the approval of the sign out 12 front. We had to take the letters down off the front 13 of the building; and then we had the approval for the 14 sign to go up out front; which we did. 15 And that's when the directional signs 16 did go up at that time. And then like I say, that was 17 a mistake on my part for not following through to 18 correctly know that we couldn't have but one 19 directional sign. 20 MEMBER GRONACHAN: Okay. 21 Member Canup? 22 MEMBER CANUP: That area to me is a very 23 delicate area and signage out on the road is something 24 that I just can't see how we can approve something like 13
1 that. And I think the fact that people can't find an 2 entrance, they're either blind or not looking. 3 I've been frequenting Boston Market ever 4 since it was built, and myself and everybody that I 5 know, has never complained of not being able to find a 6 way to get into there. 7 So with that statement, I guess I would 8 have a tough time wanting to support additional signage 9 on the property. 10 MEMBER GRONACHAN: Anyone else? 11 Member Brennan? 12 MEMBER BRENNAN: I have the same 13 problem. I don't know that we, as a Board, need to 14 issue variances for businesses to have signs on all 15 four sides of the business, although this is not the 16 case but we're getting close to it. 17 I've supported signage on buildings that 18 have two major streets, and I think that that's 19 sufficient. 20 MEMBER GRONACHAN: Anyone else? 21 Member Gray? 22 MEMBER GRAY: I would concur. As many 23 times as I've been by Boston Market and into Boston 24 Market, it doesn't seem like anybody has a problem find 14
1 there way in. I've never been by it when it's not very 2 busy and a full parking lot. 3 And I understand your request to have 4 this additional sign there, but it makes no sense to me 5 to have it there. In fact, it would probably set a 6 precedent that we don't want to revisit. 7 MEMBER BRENNAN: For the sake of 8 clarifying my thoughts, we have to -- we can only 9 approve a variance when hardship has been demonstrated. 10 And if you had had some data that said, you know, 11 there's 1400 people that can't find our place, I might 12 be -- I might have thought otherwise. 13 But we are burdened with the -- of only 14 granting a variance when hardship has been 15 demonstrated. 16 MR. ELLITHORPE: Right. And I -- 17 MEMBER BRENNAN: I wanted to go on 18 record with that. 19 Thank you. 20 MEMBER GRONACHAN: Member Fischer? 21 MEMBER FISCHER: I just want to follow- 22 up with what Member Gray said, as well. 23 Precedent setting would not be fair to 24 the other neighbors, due to the fact that many would be 15
1 in here and want directional signs. Campus Gardens, I 2 believe is around there, too. So I just totally agree 3 it would be setting a precedent and unfair to those 4 neighbors. 5 MEMBER GRONACHAN: Thank you. 6 Member Canup? 7 MEMBER CANUP With the discussion, I 8 would make a Motion, if that's acceptable. 9 I would move to deny the variance in 10 case number 04-029 sought by Boston Chicken(sic), 11 because the Petitioner has not established a practical 12 difficulty. 13 MEMBER SANGHVI: Approved. 14 MEMBER GRONACHAN: It's been moved and 15 approved -- it's been moved and seconded. 16 Is there any further discussion on the 17 Motion? 18 Seeing -- Mr. Schultz? 19 MR. SCHULTZ: Excuse me, very quick 20 clarification, based on the discussion of lack of 21 practical difficulty, as to do with the building being 22 fully visible and the signage being fully visible for 23 identification, without this proposed sign. 24 It's because it's a denial, I just 16
1 wanted to make it clear on the record. 2 MEMBER CANUP: I would accept that. 3 MR. SCHULTZ: Thank you. 4 MEMBER GRONACHAN: Denise, would you 5 please call the roll. 6 DENISE ANDERSON: Member Canup? 7 MEMBER CANUP: Yes. 8 DENISE ANDERSON: Member Brennan? 9 MEMBER BRENNAN: Yes. 10 DENISE ANDERSON: Member Bauer? 11 MEMBER BAUER: Yes. 12 DENISE ANDERSON: Member Gray? 13 MEMBER GRAY: Yes. 14 DENISE ANDERSON: Member Gronachan? 15 MEMBER GRONACHAN: Yes. 16 DENISE ANDERSON: Member Sanghvi? 17 MEMBER SANGHVI: Yes. 18 DENISE ANDERSON: Motion passes six to 19 zero. 20 MEMBER GRONACHAN: I'm sorry. 21 MR. ELLITHORPE: Thank you, again, I do 22 offer my apologizes for that way that this was handled, 23 especially to the building department, the way that I 24 did handle this. And I guarantee you that any future 17
1 projects, it won't be handled that way. 2 I appreciate your patience. 3 Thank you. 4 MEMBER GRONACHAN: Thank you. 5 So we'll call the next case. Mister -- 6 case number 04-030, filed by Mr. Gabrys by Cypress 7 Partners for Gus O'Connor's Public House, is requesting 8 three sign variances to erect three additional signs at 9 the location of 42875 Grand River Avenue in Main 10 Street, located east of Novi and south of Grand River. 11 And you are? 12 MR. GABRYS: Steve Gabrys. 13 MEMBER GRONACHAN: Please raise your 14 right hand and be sworn in by our secretary. 15 MEMBER BAUER: Do you solemnly swear or 16 affirm to tell the truth regarding case 04-030? 17 MR. GABRYS: Yes. 18 MEMBER BAUER: Thank you, sir. 19 MR. GABRYS: Good evening. Thank you 20 for your time this evening. My name is Steve Gabrys 21 from Cypress Partners. Here this evening on behalf of 22 -- here with me -- I'm sorry. Here on behalf of Gus 23 O'Connors. And Ed Smith, is here with me this evening. 24 We're requesting a variance -- actually, 18
1 three variances. One is a -- we have a projecting sign 2 on the westside of the Gus O'Connor's project; that 3 we're looking for a height variance of four feet, four 4 inches; and then also, two additional west wall signs. 5 The projecting sign, the reason -- the 6 height where it is right now is -- I have a picture of 7 the elevation of the building that shows that -- the 8 sign was installed -- a higher projection sign was so 9 that we could effectively -- there's a strobe to the 10 fire department on that corner, so we installed the 11 sign higher. 12 The other two wall signs we're 13 requesting this evening, are -- the additional signage 14 there, it just allows -- it allows Gus O'Connor's 15 effectively to identify itself on that west elevation. 16 Gus O'Connors has two elevations now, or 17 two sides, a north and west in that Market Main Street 18 area. It just doesn't -- we have only right now the 19 sign in front, and there's nothing for patrons coming 20 in from the -- approaching the site from the west to 21 see the property when they come down. 22 MEMBER GRONACHAN: Anything else? 23 MR. GABRYS: That's it. 24 MEMBER GRONACHAN: Is there anyone in 19
1 the audience that wishes to make a statement in regards 2 to this case? 3 Seeing none, there were 19 notices 4 mailed; no objections; no approvals. 5 Board Members, you do have a letter from 6 Luna Entertainment. And I will note, that's not an 7 objection or an approval. 8 Building Department? 9 MR. SAVEN: Only to point out that this 10 is multi-tenant building in which he is located on the 11 right corner of that multi-tenant building. 12 MEMBER GRONACHAN: Thank you. 13 Board Members? 14 Member Brennan? 15 MEMBER BRENNAN: First time I went to 16 Gus O'Connor's, I parked on Main and made a left on 17 Market, and I couldn't find it, because there wasn't a 18 sign on that side. 19 So I don't have any problem with a sign 20 on the Market side. However, I don't think you need 21 two. And if there is -- if you have a preference, 22 that's fine. I would think that the one that's most 23 southerly would be better, instead of having them both 24 on top of each other. 20
1 The position of the projection sign, I 2 think we -- makes sense. This is a building. It's 3 two-stories, so there's activity on the second floor, 4 as much as the ground floor. You know, if there's 5 activity going on up there, I think being positioned at 6 that height makes sense. 7 So I would support a projection sign at 8 the height that they've requested and I would support a 9 wall sign on Market Street, because it's a corner 10 business. 11 MEMBER GRONACHAN: Okay. 12 Anyone else? 13 MEMBER BRENNAN: I'll keep going, if you 14 like. 15 MEMBER GRONACHAN: Okay. 16 MEMBER BRENNAN: I'll make a Motion with 17 respect to case 04-030, that the approval for a sign on 18 the west side of the building be approved; Petitioner's 19 choice. And the projection sign at 16 feet point four 20 be approved; both for the purpose of identifying the 21 business. 22 MEMBER GRONACHAN: It's been moved. 23 Is there a second? 24 MEMBER GRAY: Second. 21
1 MEMBER GRONACHAN: Is there any further 2 discussion on the Motion? 3 Mr. Saven? 4 MR. SAVEN: I'm pitching over here. 5 MEMBER GRONACHAN: Go ahead. 6 MR. SAVEN: I'd just like to verify 7 which sign it is that he would be looking for. 8 MEMBER BRENNAN: Yeah, I can go back and 9 do that. 10 Mr. Smith do you have a preference to 11 which one? 12 MR. SMITH: I think we'll take you're 13 recommendation and do the most southerly side. So when 14 you come around Main, you'd see that, that would be 15 easier to identify. 16 MR. SAVEN: And that would be which one? 17 MR. SMITH: The one closest to the post. 18 MR. GABRYS: Correct. 19 MEMBER BRENNAN: And that makes sense 20 because the bar, you can eat as well, and it has 21 coffee. 22 MEMBER GRONACHAN: Just for 23 clarification, is that sign b or c? 24 MR. GABRYS: This doesn't indicate which 22
1 is which. 2 MEMBER BRENNAN: I think that if the 3 record -- if the Motion is made and would be defined as 4 the sign as the one more southerly. 5 MR. SMITH: Yep. 6 MR. GABRYS: Yes. 7 MEMBER BRENNAN: And the Petitioner's in 8 agreement. 9 MR. SAVEN: Okay. 10 MEMBER GRONACHAN: Okay. 11 So it's been moved and seconded. 12 No further discussion. 13 Denise, would you please call the roll. 14 DENISE ANDERSON: Member Brennan? 15 MEMBER BRENNAN: Yes. 16 DENISE ANDERSON: Member Gray? 17 MEMBER GRAY: Yes. 18 DENISE ANDERSON: Member Bauer? 19 MEMBER BAUER: Yes. 20 DENISE ANDERSON: Member Canup? 21 MEMBER CANUP: Yes. 22 DENISE ANDERSON: Member Gronachan? 23 MEMBER GRONACHAN: Yes. 24 DENISE ANDERSON: Member Sanghvi? 23
1 MEMBER SANGHVI: Yes. 2 DENISE ANDERSON: Motion passes six to 3 zero. 4 MR. GABRYS: That you very much. 5 MR. SMITH: Thanks for your time. 6 MEMBER GRONACHAN: Thank you. 7 Moving right along. 8 Calling case number 04-031, filed -- and 9 please forgive me if I mispronounce this -- Behrouz 10 Pakray of Designer Rugs and Furniture, at 43381 Grand 11 River Avenue. 12 Mr. Behrouz(sic) is requesting a sign 13 variance to erect an additional wall sign, located at 14 43381 Grand River. 15 And you are? 16 MR. PAKRAY: Behrouz Pakray. 17 MEMBER GRONACHAN: Please raise your 18 right hand to be sworn in by our secretary. 19 MEMBER BAUER: Do you solemnly swear or 20 affirm to tell the truth regarding case 04-031? 21 MR. PAKRAY: Yes, I do. 22 MEMBER BAUER: Thank you, sir. 23 MEMBER GRONACHAN: Okay. 24 MR. PAKRAY: Good evening, Member of 24
1 Council. 2 The reason I'm here, I would like to -- 3 for you to consider my request for adding second sign 4 on the Novi Road. I do have a sign right now on the 5 Grand River. So if you're coming from the north, from 6 Twelve Oaks Mall, I do have a sign which says Designer 7 Rugs and Furniture. 8 And I'm asking for additional sign on 9 the Novi Road. And the reason I'm asking for this sign 10 is that, when I opened the business almost a year and a 11 half ago, the bridge on the Grand River, it wasn't 12 built and it was not a whole lot of traffic coming down 13 from the bridge. 14 And thanks to all of you in building 15 bridge, and now I do have -- there's a lot of traffic 16 coming from the bridge. And so the reason I'm asking 17 for this, because the more traffic, and this is between 18 two major roads, the Novi and Grand River. 19 And the business sits right on the 20 corner of the Novi and Grand River. And again, because 21 of the traffic coming from Grand River because of the 22 bridge, I'm asking for you to consider the additional 23 sign. 24 The size of the sign, it's 12 inches by 25
1 16 feet, and basically same height as the other sign 2 that is on the building. 3 MEMBER GRONACHAN: Anything else? 4 MR. PAKRAY: That's it. 5 MEMBER GRONACHAN: Is there anyone in the 6 audience that wishes to make comment in regards to this 7 case? 8 Seeing none, there were 23 notices sent; 9 no objections, no approvals. 10 Building department? 11 MR. SAVEN: Just to verify what you've 12 indicated, the size of that sign. What was the size, 13 please? 14 MR. PAKRAY: The sign is 12 inches by 16 15 feet. The height is 12 inches, the width is 16 feet. 16 MR. SAVEN: Okay. Because what I'm 17 looking at is a sign that says 22 inches on your plan. 18 MR. PAKRAY: I do have a banner right 19 now. It's right -- the banner is on the building right 20 now. 21 MR. SAVEN: I just want to be sure 22 because what's before the Board tonight is what we're 23 going to be looking at. 24 MR. PAKRAY: It'll be 18 inches. I do 26
1 have again, I do have a banner on the building showing 2 the dimension and the location exactly where it's going 3 to be. 4 MEMBER GRONACHAN: Board Members? 5 Member Bauer? 6 MEMBER BAUER: You have signs in the 7 door, on the entrance way. 70 percent. That's a sign. 8 You also have one in the store, east of you, on the 9 main corner there. 10 I think those signs should be taken 11 down. 12 MR. PAKRAY: Sure. I'll do that, sir. 13 MEMBER BAUER: You also have another 14 sign on the door to the back, am I right? 15 MR. PAKRAY: In the back. You mean in 16 the parking lot, are you saying? I mean, it's a big 17 sign or small? I don't know. 18 MEMBER BAUER: It's a small sign. It's 19 on the door. 20 MR. PAKRAY: Oh, on the door, yeah. 21 There's a small one, this high. It's says Designer 22 Rugs. I'll take that off. That should be no problem. 23 MEMBER GRONACHAN: Member Canup? 24 MEMBER CANUP: I sat up there in the 27
1 intersection there. I think it was Saturday or Sunday. 2 I don't remember which day, and looked at the mock up 3 that was on the building. Quite truthfully, I found it 4 to be rather large and obnoxious. 5 And you know, since that store has been 6 there, I don't think they have any trouble identifying 7 the fact he sells rugs, because he's got them displayed 8 on the sidewalk. 9 And you know, with that, if you look at 10 the picture that's displayed here, the signage goes all 11 the way across the northside of that building from east 12 to west. 13 Basically, if we granted the variance 14 for the sign that's requested, you'd have a wrap-around 15 sign on that building. 16 And quite truthfully, by sitting and 17 looking at it where I did, which was on Grand River at 18 Novi Road looking east, again, I have no trouble 19 identifying that that is what it is. 20 So I would have difficulty supporting 21 any Motion that would grant a variance for the signage 22 that's been requested. 23 MEMBER GRONACHAN: Okay. 24 Anything else? 28
1 Member Gray? 2 MEMBER GRAY: Well, I can support 3 Petitioner's request for a variance, because we 4 typically -- half of his business is located on a 5 corner, additional signage, so that people can identify 6 the business from both major approaches. 7 I'm not sure if the one foot by 16 foot sign 8 is really necessary. 9 Would you be willing to put a smaller 10 sign on that westside? 11 MR. PAKRAY: Yes, ma'am. 12 MEMBER GRAY: How big -- how small can 13 you get it? 14 MR. PAKRAY: I can put 12 inches by 15 whatever it takes the Designer Rugs. That's the only 16 word I'm going to put on it, Designer Rugs. So I can 17 put it one foot by, I would say maybe 12 feet. 18 MEMBER GRAY: Can you get it no more 19 than ten feet -- 20 MR. PAKRAY: Yes, ma'am. 21 MEMBER GRAY: -- in width? 22 And you will also remove a lot of the 23 window signs? 24 MR. PAKRAY: Yes. 29
1 MEMBER GRAY: Does that address some of 2 your -- 3 MEMBER CANUP: No. 4 MEMBER GRONACHAN: Member Bauer? 5 MEMBER BAUER: I want to add this to 6 your list, you have some of the rugs displayed in the 7 front in the door, outside on the walk and also in the 8 back on the walk at times. I think that should also be 9 stopped. 10 MEMBER GRAY: Absolutely. 11 MEMBER GRONACHAN: Member Brennan? 12 MEMBER BRENNAN: Question for the 13 Building Department. 14 We've got other cases on the docket 15 tonight about putting material outside on the streets, 16 getting special permission. 17 Is he violating that? 18 MR. SAVEN: I am not aware of any 19 special permission for temporary use granted for that 20 particular site. And at this time, the only thing I 21 can do is refer to Neighborhood Services. 22 MEMBER BRENNAN: So it would be your 23 impression that without having any previous -- 24 MR. SAVEN: That's correct. 30
1 MEMBER BRENNAN: -- variance requested, 2 he's already in -- 3 MR. SAVEN: Violation, yep. 4 MEMBER BRENNAN: Okay. 5 Do you understand that? 6 MR. PAKRAY: Yes. 7 MEMBER BRENNAN: Okay. 8 MEMBER GRONACHAN: Member Canup? 9 MEMBER CANUP: If it's appropriate, I'd 10 be willing to make a Motion in this particular case. 11 MEMBER GRONACHAN: Okay. 12 MEMBER CANUP: I would make a Motion 13 that in case number, 04-031, that we deny the request 14 as stated. I move that -- so that we get it legally 15 correct -- I move that we deny the variance in case 16 number as stated, sought by the Petitioner as stated, 17 because the Petitioner has not established a practical 18 difficulty. 19 MEMBER BAUER: Second. 20 MEMBER GRONACHAN: It's been moved and 21 seconded. 22 Is there any further discussion on the 23 Motion? 24 MR. SCHULTZ: Again, just because of the 31
1 denial and the idea from Mr. Canup's comments earlier 2 was that he then incorporated as identification of that 3 is there already? 4 MEMBER CANUP: Yes. 5 MEMBER GRONACHAN: Any further 6 discussion? 7 Denise, would you please call the roll. 8 DENISE ANDERSON: Member Canup? 9 MEMBER CANUP: Yes. 10 DENISE ANDERSON: Member Bauer? 11 MEMBER BAUER: Yes. 12 DENISE ANDERSON: Member Brennan? 13 MEMBER BRENNAN: No. 14 DENISE ANDERSON: Member Gray? 15 MEMBER GRAY: No. 16 DENISE ANDERSON: Member Gronachan? 17 MEMBER GRONACHAN: Yes. 18 DENISE ANDERSON: Member Sanghvi? 19 MEMBER SANGHVI: No. 20 DENISE ANDERSON: Motion just fails, 21 three to three. 22 MEMBER GRONACHAN: Member Brennan? 23 MEMBER BRENNAN: I think we've got to be 24 fair here. In the previous case we talked about having 32
1 a sign that's visible on both sides of businesses that 2 have two major thoroughfares. 3 I think the Petitioner has, number one, 4 he's agreed to take care of all of the existing signage 5 that's in the windows and doors and such. He's agreed 6 to considerably knock down the size of the westside 7 wall to 12 inches tall by ten feet wide. 8 And giving those comments, I would make 9 a Motion to approve the variance request under those 10 conditions for purpose of identification. 11 MEMBER GRAY: Second. 12 MEMBER GRONACHAN: Any further 13 discussion? 14 Member Bauer? 15 MEMBER BAUER: On the corner, are they 16 allowed one on each side? 17 MR. SAVEN: Yes, they are. 18 This is a multi-tenant building, also. 19 MEMBER BAUER: That's enough, yep. 20 MEMBER GRONACHAN: Member Gray? 21 MEMBER GRAY: Mr. Brennan, if it's 22 appropriate, I would also like to include in your 23 Motion that there will be no outside rug sales; that 24 the signs would be -- the signs in the windows will be 33
1 eliminated. 2 MEMBER BRENNAN: It's amended, thank 3 you. 4 MEMBER GRONACHAN: Member Canup. 5 MEMBER CANUP: I would ask that when the 6 Motion is stated, that the Board has continuing 7 jurisdiction in this case. 8 MEMBER BRENNAN: Thank you. I actually, 9 I have that written down. 10 There's been a lot of different 11 businesses in there, and I will add that to the Motion, 12 that should there be a different business, they don't 13 necessarily get this same sign -- signage or a 14 variance. 15 MEMBER CANUP: Well, my interpretation 16 of continuing jurisdiction is if he violates the 17 statement that you have made, as far as the rugs out in 18 the front of property, the signs on the windows, etc., 19 -- 20 MR. BRENNAN: Understood. 21 MEMBER CANUP: -- we can go in revoke 22 his variance. 23 Is that correct? 24 MEMBER BRENNAN: Under continuing 34
1 jurisdiction, that gives us that right? 2 MR. SCHULTZ: Madam Chair?. 3 MEMBER GRONACHAN: Yes. 4 MR. SCHULTZ: Again, as I think I've 5 said before, I'm not sure that continuing jurisdiction 6 is a term of art that's in the Statute under Ordinance. 7 If that's what you intend, I think we just need to 8 articulate that it's a conditional variance. And if 9 there's a violation, you want him back here with the 10 ability to revoke it. 11 So with that clarification on continuing 12 jurisdiction, I think that's fine. 13 MEMBER BRENNAN: Madam Chair, I would 14 like to include the attorney's comments, as well, as 15 Mr. Canup's as part of my Motion. 16 MEMBER GRONACHAN: Okay. 17 Any second? 18 MEMBER GRAY: Second. 19 MEMBER GRONACHAN: It's been moved and 20 seconded. 21 Is there any further discussion? 22 Seeing none, Denise, would you please 23 call the roll. 24 DENISE ANDERSON: Member Brennan? 35
1 MEMBER BRENNAN: Yes. 2 DENISE ANDERSON: Member Gray? 3 MEMBER GRAY: Yes. 4 DENISE ANDERSON: Member Bauer? 5 MEMBER BAUER: Yes. 6 DENISE ANDERSON: Member Canup? 7 MEMBER CANUP: No. 8 DENISE ANDERSON: Member Gronachan? 9 MEMBER GRONACHAN: Yes. 10 DENISE ANDERSON: Member Sanghvi? 11 MEMBER SANGHVI: Yes. 12 DENISE ANDERSON: Motion passes five to 13 one. 14 MEMBER GRONACHAN: You understand the 15 stipulation? 16 MR. PAKRAY: Yes. 17 MEMBER GRONACHAN: So you need to see 18 the Building Department. 19 MR. PAKRAY: Yes. 20 MEMBER GRONACHAN: You're all set. 21 MR. PAKRAY: Thank you very much. 22 MEMBER CANUP: The next case is dealing 23 with Standard Oil on 12 Mile and Novi Road. 24 MEMBER GRONACHAN: No, I've got Bellagio 36
1 next. 2 MEMBER CANUP: Okay. 3 Well, we'll talk about it, if it's 4 appropriate, for reasons that my family has ownership 5 in that property, I'll abstain from acting as a Board 6 Member in that case. 7 MEMBER GRONACHAN: Okay. 8 All those in favor of accepting 9 Mr. Canup's recusal, say aye? 10 MEMBERS: Aye. 11 MEMBER GRONACHAN; It's been noted in 12 the record. 13 Mr. Fischer will vote at that time. 14 Well, we have the case before that, 15 which is case number 04-032, filed by Steve Powers for 16 48035 Bellagio Court. Mr. Powers is seeking a 78 17 square foot variance for the construction of an 18 attached garage, located at the address duly noted. 19 Good evening. 20 MR. GRENSBAUM: Good evening. 21 MEMBER GRONACHAN: I don't think that 22 you're Mr. Powers. 23 MR. GRENSBAUM: No. 24 Mark Grensbaum. 37
1 MEMBER GRONACHAN: Would you please 2 raise your right hand and be sworn in by our secretary. 3 MEMBER. BAUER: Do you solemnly swear or 4 affirm to tell the truth regarding case, 04-032? 5 MR. GRENSBAUM: I do. 6 MEMBER BAUER: Thank you. 7 MEMBER GRONACHAN: Please proceed. 8 MR. GRENSBAUM: Okay. I'm here to 9 request a variance for a garage, 78 square feet. It's 10 for a home in Bellagio. Most of our homes in Bellagio 11 -- well, actually, all of them, have four-car garages. 12 This one is also the four-car garage, and it's -- we 13 have minimized the size of this garage to get as close 14 to 1000 square feet as we could. We're at 1078. 15 Anybody that takes a look at the garage, 16 they can see that it's really almost considered a 17 three-car garage, how we've jetted off the front 18 corner. I can show the Zoning Board, if they'd like to 19 see the plans on this. 20 But we've -- so we've done the minimum 21 we could to accommodate the market, which is requiring 22 four-car garages now. 23 And I'll be happy to answer any 24 questions that the Zoning Board has on this. 38
1 MEMBER GRONACHAN: Okay. 2 Thank you. 3 Is there anyone in the audience that 4 wishes to make comment in regards to this case? 5 Seeing none, there were 20 notices sent; 6 no approvals; no objections. 7 Building Department? 8 MR. SAVEN: Basically, that this 9 Bellagio is an R-A zoning district, and with the one- 10 eighth requirement, he would be able to construct a 11 garage approximately 2500 square foot, otherwise, he 12 would not be here before us. 13 But unfortunately he is less than one- 14 eighth of the size. I will also point out that this is 15 being considered before the Planning Commission come up 16 very shortly for public hearing, whereby, they can look 17 to increase the square footage of the accessory 18 structures; specifically, in the R-A, R-1 zoning 19 district. 20 MEMBER GRONACHAN: Board Members? 21 Member Brennan? 22 MEMBER BRENNAN: We've had similar cases 23 from Bellagio. If I'm going to guess, by how much are 24 you short, one acre? 39
1 MR. GRENSBAUM: We have to be over 2 eight-tenths of an acre on Bellagio. We use the 3 preservation options. So some are between eight-tenths 4 of an acre and one-acre. All the lots have to be in 5 that range. 6 MEMBER BRENNAN: Similar cases should 7 give us similar results. 8 Unless there is other discussion -- we 9 have nods, so I'll go ahead and make a Motion that 10 case, 04-032, be approved. This is a large lot, large 11 subdivision, and it's similar in nature to other cases 12 of the same nature. 13 MEMBER GRONACHAN: It's been moved and 14 second. 15 Is there any further discussion in 16 regards to the Motion? 17 Seeing none, Denise, would you please 18 call the roll. 19 DENISE ANDERSON: Member Brennan? 20 MEMBER BRENNAN: Yes. 21 DENISE ANDERSON: Member Bauer? 22 MEMBER BAUER: Yes. 23 DENISE ANDERSON: Member Canup? 24 MEMBER CANUP: Yes. 40
1 DENISE ANDERSON: Member Gray? 2 MEMBER GRAY: Yep. 3 DENISE ANDERSON: Member Gronachan? 4 MEMBER GRONACHAN: Yes. 5 DENISE ANDERSON: Member Sanghvi? 6 MEMBER SANGHVI: Yes. 7 DENISE ANDERSON: Motion passes, six to 8 zero. 9 MR. GRENSBAUM: Thank you. 10 MEMBER GRONACHAN: Thank you. 11 I'd like to call case number: 04-033, 12 filed by Vaun Poplogar, a State permit for the Amoco 13 Gas Station at 43420 West -- or Twelve Mile Road. 14 Is the Petitioner here? 15 Okay. 16 MEMBER BRENNAN: Madam Chair? 17 MEMBER GRONACHAN: Yes, Member Brennan? 18 MEMBER BRENNAN: I believe our next two 19 cases is the same gentleman. 20 MEMBER GRONACHAN: Yes. 21 MEMBER BRENNAN: Traditionally, we will 22 move these to the end of the session, and if he shows 23 up, we'll hear them then. 24 MEMBER GRONACHAN: Okay. 41
1 That means Mr. Canup gets to come back. 2 Okay. If it's the case, we'll go on to 3 the next case, 04-035, filed by Deborah Whitehead for 4 Starbucks Coffee. Starbucks Coffee is located at 27795 5 Novi Road. They are seeking a request for a three-year 6 temporary use permit and approval. 7 And you are? 8 MR. BRISS: Matt Briss. 9 MEMBER GRONACHAN: I'm sorry? 10 MR. BRISS: Matthew Briss. 11 MEMBER GRONACHAN: Okay. 12 Would you please raise your right hand 13 and be sworn in by our secretary. 14 MEMBER BAUER: Do you solemnly swear or 15 affirm to tell the truth regarding the case, 04-035? 16 MR. BRISS: I do. 17 MEMBER BAUER: Thank you. 18 MR. BRISS: Well, Ms. Whitehead and 19 myself, we're requesting a temporary use approval to 20 outdoor seating for our property for a period of three 21 years from the date of the meeting. And the outdoor 22 seating will consist of three small tables and six 23 chairs to be on the outside sidewalk right outside of 24 our store. 42
1 MEMBER GRONACHAN: Anything else? 2 MR. BRISS: No, that's all I have. 3 MEMBER GRONACHAN: All right. 4 Is there anyone in the audience that 5 wishes to make a statement in regards to this matter? 6 Seeing none, there were 23 notices sent; 7 one approval; one property owner approval. There's a 8 approval from ABC Warehouse, is the owner of the 9 building at 43606 West Oak Drive, and he has no 10 objections to the outdoor seating. Second approval is 11 from Graco Usersion(ph), Incorporated. This company 12 holds the lease for two Starbucks, and hereby grants 13 approval to the tenant for the outdoor seating. 14 Building Department? 15 Basically, the reason why they're before 16 you is the fact that they're looking at a three-year 17 time factor. 18 MEMBER GRONACHAN: Okay. 19 Board members? 20 Member Brennan? 21 MEMBER BRENNAN: In dealing with these 22 cases, my first question is always, are there -- have 23 there been any issues, as far the Building Department 24 knows with regard to trash and the collection of trash? 43
1 MR. SAVEN: No. 2 MEMBER BRENNAN: Is there a timetable or 3 is it just seasonal, when it gets nice, you'll be out 4 and when it gets crappy you won't? 5 MR. BRISS: Pretty much, yeah, that's 6 the way it works. 7 MEMBER BRENNAN: How many nodding heads 8 do we have on the Board? 9 Okay. I'll make a Motion with respect 10 to case, 04-035, that the Petitioner's request be 11 granted for a three-year period, with continued 12 jurisdiction by the Building Department. 13 MEMBER GRAY: Second. 14 MEMBER GRONACHAN: It's been moved and 15 seconded. 16 Is there any further discussion? 17 Seeing none, Denise, would you please 18 call the roll. 19 DENISE ANDERSON: Member Brennan? 20 MEMBER BRENNAN: Yes. 21 DENISE ANDERSON: Member Gray? 22 MEMBER GRAY: Yes. 23 DENISE ANDERSON: Member Bauer? 24 MEMBER BAUER: Yes. 44
1 DENISE ANDERSON: Member Canup? 2 MEMBER CANUP: Yes. 3 DENISE ANDERSON: Member Gronachan? 4 MEMBER: Yes. 5 DENISE ANDERSON: Member Sanghvi? 6 MEMBER SANGHVI: Yes. 7 DENISE ANDERSON: Motion passes, six to 8 zero. 9 MR. BRISS: Thank you. 10 MEMBER GRONACHAN: Moving right along to 11 number, case number 04-036, filed by G. Michael Kahm of 12 Singh of Willowbrook, for Willowbrook Farms 13 Subdivision. 14 Mr. Kahm is requesting the variance for 15 the installation of an eight-foot fence. 16 Good evening. You're Mr. Kahm? 17 MR. ZAJAC: No, I'm Dave Zajac, 18 representing Willowbrook Farms. Mr. Kahm is under the 19 weather, couldn't make it tonight. 20 MEMBER GRONACHAN: Please raise your 21 right hand and be sworn in by our secretary. 22 MEMBER BAUER: Do you solemnly swear or 23 affirm to tell the truth, regarding case 04-036? 24 MR. ZAJAC: I do. 45
1 MEMBER BAUER: Thank you. 2 MEMBER GRONACHAN: Go ahead, sir. 3 MR. ZAJAC: Basically, we're asking for 4 a variance for the fence Ordinance that has a maximum 5 height of six feet. We're asking for a variance of two 6 feet to be able to install an eight foot tall fence 7 behind a number of lots in Willowbrook Farms that back 8 up the Glenda's Nursery and Panoramic Landscaping 9 business. 10 You probably have all driven by it on 11 Grand River. There's a great deal of clutter an 12 equipment, landscaping materials, that we wanted to 13 provide a better buffer from the existing homes that 14 are already in there; and also to make the other lots 15 more marketable. 16 MEMBER GRONACHAN: Okay. 17 Is there anyone else -- is there anyone 18 in the audience that wishes to make comment in regards 19 to this case? 20 Seeing none, there were 17 notices 21 mailed; six approvals; and one rescinded objection. 22 So basically seven approvals okay, which 23 is to see whether I'm paying attention this evening, is 24 that it? 46
1 Building Department? 2 MR. SAVEN: Basically, what Dave has 3 indicated the nursery is right directly behind these 4 proposed lots, and there is a lot of nursery stuff and 5 clutter in the area. It's become very objectionable to 6 the residents in the area. 7 MEMBER GRONACHAN: Okay. 8 Board Members? 9 Member Canup? 10 MEMBER CANUP: Mr. Saven, it's my 11 understanding that the nursery has been cited for 12 violations of Zoning Ordinances or about to be? 13 MR. SAVEN: In the past they were, yes. 14 MEMBER CANUP: Are they within 15 compliance at this time? 16 MR. SAVEN: That I am not aware of. I 17 would have to check with Neighborhood Services. 18 MEMBER CANUP: My understanding is that 19 they had been cited for violations, and that some of 20 their -- there's some contention about maybe the 21 property that they're using and that they've got a mess 22 on, isn't really zoned properly for what they're using 23 it for. 24 Maybe the trouble would go away once 47
1 this comes to light. I don't know the whole story 2 about that, just -- 3 MR. SCHULTZ: Very briefly. 4 I've seen some correspondence on this. 5 I think the two main issues are spelled in some of 6 their landscaping out in the right-of-away; and also 7 extending onto the property to the west. Whether it's 8 full property or a portion of it, I'm not sure. 9 But there's is a pending citation, 10 pending investigation. 11 MEMBER CANUP: I guess the question for 12 the Petitioner, since he's appearing before Board, 13 would you be willing to come back and then wait a month 14 and we'll see what happens with this and what the 15 status of that case is? 16 An eight foot fence is a fairly husky 17 fence. And there's probably going to be -- in my 18 opinion, there will be a time when that nursery will go 19 away. It's going to be too much of a valuable piece of 20 property for what it's being used for. 21 MEMBER GRONACHAN: Member Sanghvi? 22 MEMBER SANGHVI: Thank you. 23 I had a question. 24 What kind of fence are you proposing? 48
1 MR. ZAJAC: Vinyl to simulate -- it'll 2 look like a wood fence, but it'll be vinyl so that -- 3 MEMBER SANGHVI: So it will be a 4 screening fence. 5 MR. ZAJAC: A screening fence, yeah, a 6 privacy fence, yes. 7 MEMBER SANGHVI: And looking at the 8 terrain there, how eight foot is going to make 9 difference? 10 MR. ZAJAC: It's two foot better than a 11 six foot, you know. 12 MEMBER GRONACHAN: Member Gray? 13 MEMBER GRAY: I guess I'm taking a 14 different approach to this. 15 I can appreciate that no matter what the 16 occupancy is on Grand River, those residences may want 17 to be screened from what is existing and what is going 18 to be there in the future. Any further occupancy in 19 the -- commercial zoning along Grand River, whether 20 it's industrial or business or whatever it is, is going 21 to be required to put screening in, and this is only 22 going to help it. 23 And while I agree that an eight foot 24 fence is rather high, I really don't have a problem 49
1 with this, because I tend to believe that fencing makes 2 for good neighbors. 3 Thank you. 4 MEMBER GRONACHAN: Member Brennan? 5 MEMBER BRENNAN: I have the same 6 feeling. There have been issues with Glenda's for 7 years, and I don't think you're going to fix Glenda 8 before this guys want to start houses. 9 And if there has been a case made for 10 hardship, I think you heard it tonight. 11 MEMBER GRONACHAN: I concur with Member 12 Brennan, in terms of the turn-around in the selling. 13 Selling homes out there is tough enough without having 14 that, as an added, regardless what the future is. It's 15 unfortunate that this instance is there right now. And 16 if we ask you to wait another 30 days, and we don't 17 know what's going to happen, if it's going to take 30 18 days to solve the problem. 19 I'm just not clear on something. 20 The homeowners are putting up this fence 21 or the builder is? 22 MR. ZAJAC: No, we're doing it. 23 MEMBER GRONACHAN: Oh, the builder is. 24 MR. ZAJAC: The builder is putting up 50
1 the fence, yes. 2 MEMBER GRONACHAN: So that's another 3 reason to do it now, rather than incur -- cost won't be 4 on the future homeowner. And I just think it will make 5 it more marketable. 6 MEMBER FISCHER: Madam Chair? 7 MEMBER GRONACHAN: Member Fischer? 8 MEMBER FISCHER: I'm going to have to 9 echo Member Canup's comments, that an eight foot high 10 is a very hefty fence. I used to install fences. In 11 fact, I'm installing a fence couple lots down from 12 there, around lot 87. They back up to Glenda's, as 13 well, and all they have is a six foot wooden -- I 14 believe it's concaved or convexed fence, and they 15 didn't come before us for a request, so, I would not be 16 willing to support an eight foot fence. 17 Secondly, the grade of the land, the 18 backyard, it slopes up. If you're going to put an 19 eight foot fence on top of that slope up, which is the 20 end of the property line any way, you're going to be 21 looking at a fence that is nine, nine and a half feet 22 above the backyard of the homeowner. 23 So I would be not willing to support 24 something like that. 51
1 MEMBER GRONACHAN: Okay. 2 Thank you. 3 Member Canup? 4 MEMBER CANUP: I guess I would be 5 willing to support a fence, if they were made of a 6 block -- a brick on a block, which I probably don't 7 think they would want to put up. 8 But a fence of that height, eight feet 9 high, and I'm thinking it's in the windstream, it would 10 be a tremendous load on that wind. And I'm sure 11 they've done their homework, but again, an eight foot 12 fence, the long-term maintenance-wise, I think it's 13 going to be a terrible headache. 14 MEMBER GRONACHAN: Okay. 15 Anyone else? 16 Have you done your homework on this 17 eight feet and wind and the terrain and -- 18 MR. ZAJAC: Yes. There are many 19 different types of fences, and you know, there's 20 single-ply; double-ply; there's channel. You know, 21 windows are made of vinyl. A lot of structural items 22 are made of vinyl. It has just to be constructed 23 properly for the application where we're -- you're 24 going to use it. And for this application, I agree 52
1 that there is a heck of a wind load. It does have to 2 be a very strong fence, and we would use the type 3 that's appropriate for that; that we would do the best 4 what we suggest, or that's what we're proposing in this 5 application. 6 MEMBER GRONACHAN: Member Gray? 7 MEMBER GRAY: I'm presuming that what 8 you're proposing is just a straight symbolic continuous 9 line. Are you willing to do something where it steps 10 and do a six foot fence and then where it's stepped -- 11 because you're going to gain some height on top of the 12 hillier areas, would that be an option that you might 13 be willing to consider? 14 MR. ZAJAC: Yeah, that would make sense. 15 That would keep it consistent. The top line of the 16 fences would be consistent all the way across. 17 MEMBER GRAY: Well, it may not be, if 18 you stepped it. 19 MR. ZAJAC: Are you saying with where 20 the terrain is level, then we'd have an eight foot 21 fence, and then it steps up to a foot and a half or two 22 foot, then it would be six foot? 23 I don't understand. 24 MEMBER GRAY: I've seen with challenging 53
1 hilly lots where you might have six foot here and then 2 you'd have another six foot up -- 3 MR. ZAJAC: Oh, yeah. 4 MEMBER GRAY: -- then it's stepped. And 5 that might be -- 6 MR. ZAJAC: Well, that's just a way of 7 installing fence. I mean, whether we put a six foot or 8 an eight foot, it would be done the same way. So I 9 guess I just -- 10 MEMBER GRAY: Well, as opposed to having 11 a continuous top line that would run with the grade. 12 MR. ZAJAC: Yeah. I guess maybe I'd ask 13 Mr. Fischer about installing fences. I'm not sure. 14 MEMBER FISCHER: The stepping would not 15 quite work. And I don't think it would look as nice. 16 It anything, whether it's six or eight, my personal 17 opinion is to follow the contour of the land, no matter 18 where it goes. And with this type of fence, you can 19 actually make it follow the land. 20 So as far as maintenance and quality, I 21 must say that PVC -- 22 It is a PVC fence, right? 23 MR. ZAJAC: Yes. 24 MEMBER FISCHER: It is relatively light- 54
1 weight and low maintenance, as far as that goes. There 2 are things that can be done to stabilize this, putting 3 concrete in the posts. So -- 4 MEMBER GRAY: Just trying to offer 5 another option. 6 MEMBER GRONACHAN: Member Canup? 7 MEMBER CANUP: In looking at the 8 elevations, it looks like the back of those lots along 9 there and midway -- lot number 90, for instance, is 10 875. If you go back on the other side of the fence, it 11 looks like it goes up to 880, so you had a five foot 12 rise, with a -- it looks like a berm along there. 13 Am I reading that correctly? 14 It shows the top of berm, 880.55. And 15 then that lot number 90, where the fence goes, is 16 roughly -- it looks like about 875. So you've got 17 somewhere in the area of five foot rise with a berm 18 back there. 19 MR. ZAJAC: Well, yeah. 20 MEMBER CANUP: Pretty much -- that 880 21 looks like it holds through pretty much all the way 22 across the back. 23 MR. ZAJAC: Right. But that berm is on 24 -- is not on the Willowbrook property. That berm is on 55
1 the Glenda's property, which means, you know, that's 2 clutter and landscape material that they're looking at, 3 that's five feet above the level of the lot. 4 That's another reason why we want a 5 taller fence. 6 MEMBER CANUP: Are they storing 7 materials on top of that berm? 8 Looks to me like it drops off 9 significantly. It goes down to 876. Back -- well, if 10 it was to scale, it's probably -- I don't know what the 11 scale is -- but if it drops off, it goes away from the 12 top of that berm. 13 MR. ZAJAC: Right. 14 MEMBER CANUP: It looks like it drops 15 off about four feet. 16 MR. ZAJAC: Yeah, I agree with you. 17 There is a berm and a three foot drop on the other 18 side. I cannot answer for sure. I don't know, as far 19 as what -- where' they're storage ends. 20 MEMBER BAUER: It goes from 87 to 94, is 21 a six foot difference. 22 MEMBER GRONACHAN: Member Sanghvi? 23 MEMBER SANGHVI: I think I'm going to 24 make a Motion. Let's see what happens. 56
1 MEMBER GRONACHAN: Okay. 2 MEMBER SANGHVI: That in the case 3 number, 04-036, Petitioner has demonstrated a need for 4 screening, and his request maybe granted. 5 MEMBER BRENNAN: Second. 6 MEMBER GRONACHAN: Motion's been made 7 and seconded. 8 Is there any further discussion on the 9 Motion? 10 Seeing none, Denise, would you please 11 call the roll. 12 DENISE ANDERSON: Member Sanghvi? 13 MEMBER SANGHVI: Yes. 14 DENISE ANDERSON: Member Brennan? 15 MEMBER BRENNAN: Yes. 16 DENISE ANDERSON: Member Bauer? 17 MEMBER BAUER: Yes. 18 DENISE ANDERSON: Member Canup? 19 MEMBER CANUP: Yes. 20 DENISE ANDERSON: Member Gray? 21 MEMBER GRAY: Yes. 22 DENISE ANDERSON: Member Gronachan? 23 MEMBER GRONACHAN: Yes. 24 DENISE ANDERSON: Motion passes, six to 57
1 zero. 2 MR. ZAJAC: Thank you very much. 3 MEMBER GRONACHAN: Let's call our next 4 case, 04-037, filed by Patrick -- Mr. and Mrs. Patrick 5 Dunn at residence of 22145 Daleview Drive. 6 Mr. & Mrs. Dunn are requesting a 6.4 7 front yard setback variance for the construction of an 8 attached garage, addition to a single-family home. 9 Good evening 10 MRS. DUNN: Good evening. 11 MEMBER GRONACHAN: Are you Mrs. Dunn? 12 MRS. DUNN: Yes, Karen Dunn. 13 MEMBER GRONACHAN: Are you both going to 14 testify, or just one? 15 MR. DUNN: I guess both. 16 MEMBER GRONACHAN: Okay. 17 Would you both please raise your right 18 hand and be sworn in by our secretary. 19 MEMBER BAUER: Do you solemnly swear or 20 affirm to tell the truth regarding case, 04-037? 21 MRS. DUNN: Yes. 22 MR. DUNN: I do. 23 MEMBER BAUER: Thank you. 24 Go ahead. 58
1 MRS. DUNN: Good evening. 2 We are seeking to put an addition onto 3 our existing two-car garage, making it a three-car 4 garage; that necessitates our seeking a 6.4 foot 5 variance to the front setback. 6 MEMBER GRONACHAN: Okay. 7 Anything else? 8 All right. 9 Is there anyone in the audience that 10 wishes to make any statements or comments in regards to 11 this case? 12 Seeing none, there were 25 notices sent; 13 seven approvals; no objections. 14 Just so the Board knows, all the 15 approvals were from Daleview residents on the same 16 street. 17 Building Department? 18 MR. SAVEN: No comment, other than the 19 fact that this is another need for additional garage 20 space, which seems to be an ongoing concern. 21 MEMBER GRONACHAN: Okay. 22 Board Members? 23 Member Canup? 24 MEMBER CANUP: Just -- how many square 59
1 feet is the house? 2 MRS. DUNN: 3300. 3 MEMBER CANUP: 3100? 4 MRS. DUNN: 3300. 5 MEMBER CANUP: 3300, okay. 6 MEMBER GRONACHAN: Member Brennan? 7 MEMBER BRENNAN: I'll just note for 8 those that might be watching that we do have approval 9 from the Bradford of Novi Homeowners' Association. 10 They point out that most of the homes, almost all of 11 the homes have three-car garages, and they believe that 12 this is beneficial for this particular home to be 13 brought up to this level. 14 It's a minimal request. I don't have 15 any problem with it. 16 MEMBER BAUER: No problem here. 17 MEMBER GRONACHAN: Anyone else? 18 Member Canup? 19 MEMBER CANUP: Is there a sidewalk? 20 MRS. DUNN: There is none. 21 MEMBER CANUP: Okay. 22 That solves that problem. 23 MEMBER GRONACHAN: I think we're ready 24 to make a Motion. 60
1 MEMBER BRENNAN: I will. 2 MEMBER GRONACHAN: Member Sanghvi? 3 MEMBER BRENNAN: Oh, I'm sorry. 4 MEMBER SANGHVI: Okay, all right. 5 We're so polite to each other. 6 In case number 04-037, the Petitioner 7 has demonstrated a great hardship, and his request for 8 variance be granted. 9 MEMBER BAUER: Second. 10 MEMBER GRONACHAN: It's been moved and 11 seconded. 12 Is there any further discussion in 13 regards to the Motion? 14 Seeing none, Denise, would you please 15 call the roll. 16 DENISE ANDERSON: Member Sanghvi? 17 MEMBER SANGHVI: Yes. 18 DENISE ANDERSON: Member Bauer? 19 MEMBER BAUER: Yes. 20 DENISE ANDERSON: Member Brennan? 21 MEMBER BRENNAN: Yes. 22 DENISE ANDERSON: Member Canup? 23 MEMBER CANUP: Yes. 24 DENISE ANDERSON: Member Gray? 61
1 MEMBER GRAY: Yes. 2 DENISE ANDERSON: Member Gronachan? 3 MEMBER GRONACHAN: Yes. 4 DENISE ANDERSON: Motion passes, six to 5 zero. 6 MRS. DUNN: Thank you. 7 MEMBER GRONACHAN: Good luck to you. 8 Please see the Building Department. 9 MRS. DUNN: Thank you. 10 MEMBER GRONACHAN: At this point, the 11 Board will entertain a five-minute break. 12 We'll return at 8:37 13 (Brief recess taken.) 14 (Back on the record.) 15 MEMBER GRONACHAN: We'll call the ZBA 16 meeting back to order. 17 Our next case is 04-038, Mr. Terry Ahola 18 at Jimmie's Rustic Furniture Store at 48700 Grand River 19 Avenue. 20 Mr. Ahola is requesting a three-year 21 temporary lease permit. 22 Good evening? 23 MR. AHOLA: Good evening. 24 MEMBER GRONACHAN: Are you Mr. Ahola? 62
1 MR. AHOLA: Ahola. 2 MEMBER GRONACHAN: Would you please 3 raise your right hand and be sworn in by our secretary. 4 MEMBER BAUER: Do you solemnly swear or 5 affirm to tell the truth, regarding case 04-038? 6 MR. AHOLA: Yes. 7 MEMBER BAUER: Okay. 8 Go ahead. 9 MEMBER GRONACHAN: Okay. 10 You can proceed. 11 MR. AHOLA: We are seeking a temporary 12 use permit for the period of three years, from March 13 1st to October 15th, for the display of patio furniture 14 in the front of our store on Grand River for the three- 15 year period. 16 In the past, we have been -- we have 17 applied and received the grant for a yearly permit to 18 display on a yearly basis. I spoke with Mr. Saven last 19 year, and he recommended that I come before you guys to 20 apply for a three-year. 21 MEMBER GRONACHAN: Okay. 22 Anything else? 23 MR. AHOLA: Nope. 24 MEMBER GRONACHAN: Is there anyone in 63
1 the audience that wishes to make a statement in regards 2 to this case? 3 Seeing none, there were 19 notices sent; 4 one approval, and that was by Sherry Cornet -- Cornell, 5 at CZ Cartage and Realty, located at 48735 Grand River. 6 "Jimmie's is a first-class, well- 7 maintained business. We would appreciate seeing some 8 of their furniture on display outside. This would 9 foster more business for Jimmie's, which is good for 10 our community." 11 Building Department? 12 MR. SAVEN: Just as indicated from 13 Mr. Ahola, is the fact that he had been before me on 14 several occasions on a yearly basis. And based on the 15 fact that the continuously has applied and I have had 16 no objections by the public or what have you. The only 17 condition I had is that he maintain handicap 18 accessibility to his entrance, and around the building 19 for his displays. 20 MEMBER GRONACHAN: Okay. 21 Board Members? 22 Altogether? 23 We'll start at the end and move forward. 24 MEMBER SANGHVI: I just had one 64
1 question. 2 MR. AHOLA: Yes, sir. 3 MEMBER SANGHVI: Are you planning to 4 have a tent sale or something like that, also, or just 5 display the furniture? 6 MR. AHOLA: No. It's basically just a 7 display, just to create interest, you know, in our 8 outdoor products. 9 MEMBER SANGHVI: Thank you. 10 MEMBER GRONACHAN: Member Canup? 11 MEMBER CANUP: I wouldn't have any 12 trouble supporting a request. 13 You know, if it is appropriate, I'd be 14 glad to make it. 15 MEMBER GRONACHAN: I would just like to 16 say that whenever I drive by there, I love their 17 furniture. You can put it in my front yard. 18 MEMBER CANUP: It's tastefully done and 19 well managed. And I don't think the Building 20 Department's had any complaints or problems with it. 21 I would make an Ordinance -- or make a 22 Motion. Make Motion that in case number, 04-038, filed 23 by Jimmie's Rustics that -- I move that we grant the 24 variance, because the Petitioner has established a 65
1 practical difficulty. 2 MEMBER BAUER: Second. 3 MEMBER GRONACHAN: It's been moved and 4 seconded. 5 Is there anything further from Member 6 Fischer? 7 MEMBER FISCHER: I think it should be on 8 a condition that handicap access is maintained or is 9 that understood? 10 MEMBER GRONACHAN: It was stated in the 11 -- 12 MEMBER CANUP: It's a requirement of the 13 law. 14 MR. SAVEN: We will be touching him on 15 handicap accessibility, if we have a complaint, and we 16 can drive by and take a look. 17 MEMBER GRONACHAN: And I don't think 18 access is effected. 19 Any further discussion? 20 Seeing none, Denise would you please 21 call the roll. 22 DENISE ANDERSON: Member Canup? 23 MEMBER CANUP: Yes. 24 DENISE ANDERSON: Member Bauer? 66
1 MEMBER BAUER: Yes. 2 DENISE ANDERSON: Member Brennan? 3 MEMBER BRENNAN: Yes. 4 DENISE ANDERSON: Member Gray? 5 MEMBER GRAY: Yes. 6 DENISE ANDERSON: Member Gronachan? 7 MEMBER GRONACHAN: Yes. 8 DENISE ANDERSON: Member Sanghvi? 9 MEMBER SANGHVI: Yes. 10 DENISE ANDERSON: Motion passes, six to 11 zero. 12 MEMBER GRONACHAN: Your variance has 13 been granted. 14 MR. AHOLA: Thank you. 15 MEMBER GRONACHAN: Good luck. 16 Okay. 17 Our next case is 04-039, filed by Mr. & 18 Mrs. Patrick Ziarnik, for a residence at 1601 West Lake 19 Drive. Mr. & Mrs. Ziarnik are requesting two sideyard 20 setback variances for the construction of a patio 21 enclosure, and two variances for the constriction of a 22 gazebo located at the address. 23 MR. ZIARNIK: Good evening. 24 I'm Pat Ziarnik. 67
1 MEMBER GRONACHAN: Okay. 2 Would you please raise your right hand 3 and be sworn in by our secretary. 4 MEMBER BAUER: Do you solemnly swear or 5 affirm to tell the truth in case 04-039? 6 MR. ZIARNIK: I do. 7 MEMBER BAUER: Thank you, sir. 8 MR. ZIARNIK: Good evening. 9 My name is Pat Ziarnik and my wife and I 10 own the property at 1601 West Lake Drive in Novi. We 11 moved there about a year ago. 12 What we -- we initially proposed two -- 13 or made two requests. One was for the porch enclosure; 14 the second was for gazebo construction. In talking 15 with our neighbors, however, one of them expressed some 16 concern about the gazebo construction, and possibly 17 that that might obstruct their view of the lake. 18 We live on Walled Lake; and so therefore 19 in deference to their position, we'd like to withdraw 20 that request, if we could, and just proceed with the 21 porch enclosure request. 22 And what we would like to say in terms 23 of that is, we are not changing the footprint of the 24 house whatsoever. There's currently a pad on the first 68
1 floor. There's a overhang porch, that overhangs that; 2 and what we're simply looking to do is enclose that 3 porch on the first floor. 4 So we're not changing the footprint of 5 the house at all. We believe it would be aesthetically 6 pleasing. It's not going to stick out like a sore 7 thumb. We've gone back and forth with our builder. We 8 think it's going to be an aesthetically pleasing 9 addition. 10 Furthermore, we have talked to both of 11 the neighbors north of us -- immediately north and 12 immediately south, and it's our understanding that 13 they're both in agreement with this proposed 14 modification. 15 Last in terms if you analyze this, in 16 terms of a hardship, given the narrowness of our lot -- 17 we're on a 40 foot lot. Given the fact that the 18 placement of our house on that particular lot, that 19 fact that the house abuts the lot on one point and is 20 only five feet from the lot on another point, there's 21 virtually no modification or enlargement would could 22 do, without seeking a variance. 23 This particular variance would be the 24 simplest, the least obstructive; and the cheapest way 69
1 to go. And so therefore, we would ask that you 2 consider the porch enclosure request. 3 MEMBER GRONACHAN: Okay. 4 MR. ZIARNIK: Thank you. 5 MEMBER GRONACHAN: Thank you. 6 Is there anyone in the audience that 7 wishes to make comment in regards to this case? 8 Please state your name for the record. 9 MR. HARVEY: Hi. Tom Harvey, 1603 West 10 Lake Drive. 11 And good evening, Board Members. 12 We are the neighbor immediately to the 13 south. And as you all know, you heard before, we'll 14 say it again, this area is at least 100 years old. We 15 have up there is what's there. You can't go changing 16 it now. 17 The only way it does get better, is 18 through the actions of the residents and the 19 homeowners, the investment of their own money and their 20 own time and their own effort. 21 In that vein, we have supported the 22 previous homeowner in the improvements that they made, 23 and we applaud the efforts of both Pam and Pat on their 24 effort to improve the home and make it more liveable 70
1 for their needs. With that in mind, my wife, Joyce, 2 and I, are requesting that you unanimously approve 3 their request to an enclosed porch. 4 Thank you very much. 5 MEMBER GRONACHAN: Thank you. 6 Anyone else? 7 Seeing none, there were 64 notices sent; 8 one approval for both the patio and the gazebo; three 9 approvals for just the patio, and two objections -- and 10 two objections, for the gazebo. 11 So the objections, again, I just want to 12 clarify that, are just for the gazebo. The approvals 13 are for the addition are duly noted in the record. 14 Building Department? 15 MR. SAVEN: Once again put on for the 16 Board, there's no extension of the footprint of the 17 building. He's actually building within that footprint 18 that's existing. And also I appreciate your concern or 19 your neighbors, as far as the gazebo is concerned. 20 MEMBER GRONACHAN: Board Members? 21 Member Brennan? 22 MEMBER BRENNAN: I just want to be clear 23 on the variances. 24 We're now only looking at the minimum 71
1 sideyard setback of five feet, instead of ten; and the 2 aggregate of 14, instead of 25. 3 MR. ZIARNIK: That's correct. 4 MEMBER BRENNAN: Okay. So the other two 5 are gone. 6 Given the lot's configuration, how the 7 house is already positioned on that lot, the fact that 8 there is already a porch there, and they're just boxing 9 it in, I would have no problem supporting this. 10 MEMBER GRONACHAN: Member Gray? 11 MEMBER GRAY: Ditto. I've always 12 wondered how that lot was shaped, and it's rather 13 interesting what they did in the past. 14 I'll be happy to make a Motion if that's 15 what the Board would like to entertain. 16 MEMBER GRONACHAN: I would like to just 17 note that I commend you for working well with your 18 neighbors, and removing the gazebo. 19 MR. ZIARNIK: Well, we've only lived 20 there a short time and we don't want to upset any of 21 our neighbors. 22 MEMBER GRONACHAN: I think that's really 23 what should be noted this evening; and that takes a lot 24 to work; and that shows that great spirit up there, up 72
1 in the north end. So I commend you for that. 2 Member Gray? 3 MEMBER GRAY: In the matter of case 04- 4 039, move to approve the variances requested for the 5 enclosure of the porch, due to the lot size and 6 configuration; and the fact that this will not impose 7 any more footprint on the existing; and that the gazebo 8 has been withdrawn. 9 MEMBER BAUER: Second. 10 MEMBER GRONACHAN: It's been moved and 11 seconded. 12 Is there any further discussion on the 13 Motion? 14 Denise, would you please call the roll. 15 DENISE ANDERSON: Member Gray? 16 MEMBER GRAY: Yes. 17 DENISE ANDERSON: Member Bauer? 18 MEMBER BAUER: Yes. 19 DENISE ANDERSON: Member Brennan? 20 MEMBER BRENNAN: Yes. 21 DENISE ANDERSON: Member Canup? 22 MEMBER CANUP: Yes. 23 DENISE ANDERSON: Member Gronachan? 24 MEMBER GRONACHAN: Yes. 73
1 DENISE ANDERSON: Member Sanghvi? 2 MEMBER SANGHVI: Yes. 3 DENISE ANDERSON: Motion passes, six to 4 zero. 5 MEMBER GRONACHAN: Thank you. 6 Your variance has been granted. Good 7 luck. 8 Okay. 9 We'll call our next case, 04-040 filed 10 by Bryan Letourneau, for a residence at 50191 Nine Mile 11 Road. Mr. Letourneau is requesting an 11 foot minimum 12 sideyard setback variance, and the variance of seven 13 feet nine inches for minimum aggregate total of two 14 side yards for the construction of an addition and 15 attached garage to the property so noted. 16 And are you Mr. Letourneau? 17 MR. LETOURNEAU: Yes, I'm 18 Mr. Letourneau. I live at 50191 Nine Mile. 19 MEMBER GRONACHAN: Would you raise your 20 right hand and be sworn in by our secretary, please. 21 MEMBER BAUER: Do you solemnly swear or 22 affirm to tell the truth regarding case 04-040? 23 MR. LETOURNEAU: Yes. 24 MEMBER GRONACHAN: Go ahead. 74
1 MR. LETOURNEAU: We're looking for a 2 variance because we're getting ready to build a garage 3 and addition. And we're looking for a sideyard -- a 4 side setback that is 20 feet, and we want to cut it 5 down to nine feet on the side. And the then the two 6 sides, we're looking for seven feet nine inch variance. 7 We have no garage right now. We've been 8 in Novi for 20 years now, and we're getting ready to 9 kind of expand. The family's getting bigger and stuff, 10 and we wanted to add, you know, get a garage built 11 there and family room and stuff. 12 MEMBER GRONACHAN: Okay. 13 Anything else? 14 All set? 15 Is there anyone in the audience that 16 wishes to make comment in regards to this case? 17 MRS. LETOURNEAU: I do. 18 MEMBER GRONACHAN: And you are? 19 MRS. LETOURNEAU: Lisa Letourneau. 20 MEMBER GRONACHAN: Please raise your 21 right hand and be sworn in by our secretary. 22 MRS. LETOURNEAU: Okay. 23 MEMBER BAUER: Do you solemnly swear or 24 affirm to tell the truth regarding case, 04-040? 75
1 MRS. LETOURNEAU: Yes, I do. 2 I just wanted to mention that on the 3 eastside of the property -- we were talking about the 4 variance that's supposed to be 50 feet combined -- the 5 eastside of the property is all wetlands. So even 6 though it's going to be less than 50 feet total, there 7 will never be a house next to us on the eastside; 8 unless you let somebody fill in all the wetlands, which 9 I doubt. 10 So there will never be a problem with 11 that. 12 On the westside of the property, the way 13 it lines up with the proposed build, the two garages 14 will actually add additional privacy to us, and to our 15 recent neighbors. 16 So, you know, as you said earlier, 17 three-car garages are pretty standard in this area. 18 That's it. 19 MEMBER GRONACHAN: Okay. 20 Thank you. 21 There were six notices sent; no 22 objections; no approvals. 23 Building Department? 24 MR. SAVEN: This is a R-A Zoning 76
1 District, and the 50 foot is the sum total combined 2 sideyard setback. 3 MEMBER GRONACHAN: Okay. 4 Board members? 5 Everybody's thinking this evening. 6 Member Brennan? 7 MEMBER BRENNAN: I wish I would have 8 spent a little bit more time studying your house, but I 9 ran out of time. 10 Can you tell me why the garage can't be 11 positioned more in the front of the house or behind the 12 house? 13 MRS. LETOURNEAU: It's actually set-up 14 to be partially in front of the house, as the way that 15 it's designed. So it will actually cover the front 16 door. We wont' be able to see from our front door to 17 the neighbors. And the design of the house was 18 intended to make it more appropriate for the houses in 19 the area. The house has been there since about 1936, I 20 believe. 21 And if you know this area, it's changed 22 quite drastically in the last 20 years. 23 MR. LETOURNEAU: The original footprint 24 is on the left-hand side. 77
1 MEMBER BRENNAN: I'm still trying to get 2 my bearings here. 3 MR. LETOURNEAU: Are looking at the top? 4 MEMBER BRENNAN: Yes. 5 MRS. LETOURNEAU: That's Nine Mile. 6 It actually sort of goes, I think, 7 through the point of that property. 8 MEMBER BRENNAN: And my question was -- 9 and again, looking at this, was -- is there anyway of 10 tucking this garage more behind the house? 11 MR. LETOURNEAU: No, because the well is 12 right -- that's why we had to bump it up, because the 13 well is right next to the house about six feet out. So 14 we can't go back. That's why we had to bump it forward 15 there, without having to redrill a well and all that 16 stuff. 17 MEMBER BRENNAN: That's the kind of 18 stuff we need to know, to get a better understanding 19 of, again, what's your hardship. Why does this 20 variance have to work? Why is this the only way it 21 can work? You can't go in the back tucked more behind 22 the house, because you got a well. 23 MR. LETOURNEAU: Right. 24 MEMBER BRENNAN: And can you address why 78
1 could it not be tucked more in front of the house? 2 MRS. LETOURNEAU: Well, I think that the 3 whole issue is not the depth. It's the width. 4 MEMBER BRENNAN: Yeah. 5 MRS. LETOURNEAU: That's why we're 6 looking at the variance. 7 MEMBER BRENNAN: I'm looking at -- I see 8 your garage addition. 9 MRS. LETOURNEAU: Right. 10 But whether the garage was in front or 11 in back, it's still the same width, and the width is 12 the issue, do you know? 13 You know, it's going to be from the side 14 of the property that we were looking for a variance, 15 not the front or the back. 16 MEMBER GRONACHAN: Member Gray? 17 MEMBER GRAY: I think we understand 18 that. 19 We're trying to find out if there's 20 anyway you can build this with less of a variance, by 21 reciting or relocating. So tell us why you can't 22 relocate the addition. 23 MR. LETOURNEAU: It would effect the 24 design, the elevation design the land or the architect 79
1 has come up with, you know, us and the architect. 2 The only other way is, we'd have to get 3 rid of the three-car garage, and we really don't want 4 to do that, because my wife and I both have, you know, 5 company vehicles; then the kids are growing up, and we 6 kind of -- we'd end up with either cement slab over 7 there with a car parked on the side or else we could 8 build the garage there, where we could keep it, you 9 know, enclosed and neat and everybody else has got a 10 three-car garage in a lot of those homes out there. 11 You know, it makes ours pretty small in 12 comparison. 13 MEMBER GRAY: I think we all understand 14 that, but what we're looking at is, you know, is there 15 anywhere else attached to the house on this property, 16 you can put this addition, without the variance 17 requested, and that's what we have to determine. 18 MR. LETOURNEAU: No. 19 MEMBER GRONACHAN: Member Brennan? 20 MEMBER BRENNAN: That statement you were 21 just discussing that here, if it wasn't attached. 22 MEMBER CANUP: I guess the question is 23 it physically possible to build this within the 24 Ordinances, or is it impossible to build it in the 80
1 Ordinances; and is it impossible to build it within the 2 Ordinance, because the architect designed it this way? 3 MRS. LETOURNEAU: It's impossible to 4 build it within the Ordinance with a three-car garage. 5 MEMBER. CANUP: The way you want it. 6 MRS. LETOURNEAU: We can build it with a 7 two-car garage. 8 MEMBER CANUP: What about the area in 9 the back? You've got 137 feet -- 132 feet back there? 10 That's all, I understand, is usable land? Your 11 property to the front, I guess, toward Nine Mile is 12 wetlands; is that correct? 13 MRS. LETOURNEAU: No, on the side. 14 MR. LETOURNEAU: The eastside. 15 MEMBER CANUP: The eastside back here. 16 And you've got this property up in the 17 front here that is usable land? 18 MRS. LETOURNEAU: Yes. 19 MEMBER CANUP: And you can't find a way 20 to fit a house on that piece of property? 21 MRS. LETOURNEAU: You can fit a garage. 22 You can't attach it. 23 MR. LETOURNEAU: We're trying to attach 24 a garage -- 81
1 MEMBER CANUP: I guess you're going to 2 have to do a better sales job, in my opinion. 3 You've got a tremendous piece of 4 property here. Looks like 400 by 120. 5 MRS. LETOURNEAU: Yeah. 6 But the house has been existing since 7 1936. We can't do anything with the plan the way the 8 house exists. So if you look at the house as it stands 9 now, the only place to go is to the -- 10 MR. LETOURNEAU: To the west. 11 MRS. LETOURNEAU: -- is to the west, and 12 to be able to attach it to the home. 13 We've tried to figure this out for like 14 eight years, how we would attach a garage to this 15 house. And this is the only way that we have come up 16 with, where it can be attached. There's only an 17 entrance to the front door and an entrance to the back 18 in the back corner. 19 MEMBER CANUP: The next question. 20 MRS. LETOURNEAU: Okay. 21 MEMBER CANUP: It can be important in 22 your case, on the lot line there, I guess i son the 23 northside, whatever side that is -- 24 MRS. LETOURNEAU: East -- west. 82
1 MEMBER CANUP: -- westside, how far is 2 it to the next structure on the person's property next 3 door? 4 MR. LETOURNEAU: Probably -- 5 MRS. LETOURNEAU: It would have to be 6 nine feet plus -- he's got 20 feet. 7 MEMBER CANUP: But is he 20 feet from 8 the lot line, or was it built 35 years ago, when -- 9 MRS. LETOURNEAU: Oh, no. It's a brand 10 new house. 11 MR. LETOURNEAU: It's brand new. 12 MRS. LETOURNEAU: It's brand new. 13 MR. LETOURNEAU: We're not sure -- 14 MRS. LETOURNEAU: We never received 15 anything that he was requesting a variance, so I'm 16 assuming that he's within that Ordinance. 17 MEMBER CANUP: How far from the lot 18 line? 19 MR. SAVEN: Got to be a minimum of 20 20 feet. 21 MEMBER CANUP: So you'd have 30 feet 22 between, if he was right on it. 23 MR. SAVEN: If I can, please. 24 I just heard you indicate earlier that 83
1 there was a wetlands issue adjacent to you? 2 MRS. LETOURNEAU: On the -- 3 MR. SAVEN: On the nine foot side. 4 MRS. LETOURNEAU: On the other side, 5 eastside. 6 MEMBER CANUP: 33 foot 3 inch side. 7 MEMBER BRENNAN: Wetlands is on this 8 side. 9 MRS. LETOURNEAU: Right. 10 MEMBER CANUP: But that has no way of -- 11 on the buildability of this piece of property. 12 MRS. LETOURNEAU: The only impact is 13 that the combination of the two sides equal 50 feet, 14 for the second variance, it even though it would be 50 15 feet, there will never be another house over there. 16 MR. LETOURNEAU: But your question, you 17 know, if would could, if there was a way for us to 18 attach this garage to that side, there isn't, because 19 there's three bedrooms on that side. And on the 20 westside, it lines up better for you to come up into 21 the dinning area and stuff from the garage. 22 You know, it lines up better to the 23 existing house right now, to go off the westside. It's 24 really the only way that we could come up with to make 84
1 this addition fit and look good. 2 MEMBER CANUP: You've got two acres of 3 property. 4 MRS. LETOURNEAU: No, it's one acre. 5 MEMBER CANUP: One acre. 6 MRS. LETOURNEAU: But the eastside of 7 the house, is all the bedrooms; and the westside of the 8 house is the living room, the dinning room and the 9 kitchen. 10 MEMBER CANUP: I'm one person on the 11 Board, so -- 12 MEMBER GRONACHAN: Okay. 13 Member Sanghvi? 14 MEMBER SANGHVI: Thank you. 15 I was there yesterday. I saw they have 16 a problem, because with the eastside, there's no 17 sideyard there at all. It's all wetlands. And then if 18 you go further back on the westside, they have a 19 swimming pool there. 20 MR. LETOURNEAU: Right. 21 MEMBER SANGHVI: So the only place they 22 can build a garage is the way they have demonstrated, 23 if it is going to be an attached garage. 24 And to be honest, I have no difficulty 85
1 in supporting that request, and if it is all right, 2 Madam Chair, I would like to make a Motion with the 3 case number, 04-040, that Petitioner has demonstrated a 4 great hardship because of the lot configuration and 5 there is a wetland on the eastside, and the request for 6 variance be granted. 7 MEMBER BAUER: Second. 8 MEMBER GRONACHAN: It's been moved and 9 seconded. 10 Is there any further discussion on the 11 Motion? 12 Member Gray? 13 MEMBER GRAY: I'm not going to be able 14 to support this Motion, because I think you have not 15 proved to us that you cannot build with less of a 16 variance. And I understand that there's other issues 17 at play here, but there, with all that property, 18 there's got to be away to find a better place and not 19 encroach on the side property line. 20 MEMBER GRONACHAN: Anyone else? 21 Denise, would you please call the roll. 22 DENISE ANDERSON: Member Sanghvi? 23 MEMBER SANGHVI: Yes. 24 DENISE ANDERSON: Member Bauer? 86
1 MEMBER BAUER: Yes. 2 DENISE ANDERSON: Member Brennan? 3 MEMBER BRENNAN: No. 4 DENISE ANDERSON: Member Canup? 5 MEMBER CANUP: No. 6 DENISE ANDERSON: Member Gray? 7 MEMBER GRAY: No. 8 DENISE ANDERSON: Member Gronachan? 9 MEMBER GRONACHAN: Yes. 10 DENISE ANDERSON: Motion failed, three 11 to three. 12 MEMBER BRENNAN: Madam Chair? 13 MEMBER GRONACHAN: Yes. 14 MEMBER BRENNAN: I don't deny anybody 15 the desire to add to their home, if they don't have a 16 garage, but I think I need a lot more information. I 17 hear now that we've got a well that comes into place. 18 I hear we got a swimming pool that comes into place, I 19 really suggest that you take a look at the information 20 you have and enhance it to sell your case. 21 But right now, you've got a problem. I 22 mean -- 23 MEMBER GRONACHAN: Member Brennan, maybe 24 I can share some light, since this is kind of in my 87
1 backyard. 2 And I'm going to paint a picture a 3 little bit, I know we've all been out there, driving by 4 the house quite a bit, maybe I can help. 5 When you're coming down Nine Mile, the 6 road always curves. And to bring this house forward, 7 in my opinion, would bring it too close to Nine Mile. 8 If they ever do anything with Nine Mile, they're going 9 to be right in Nine Mile, the front of the house, the 10 garage, correct. 11 To the east, because this angle, what 12 you're looking at is this long piece of property, but 13 it almost has an angle to it. And granted, there's new 14 construction to the west of this house. To the east, 15 is the wetland, and I don't say never in Novi, ever. 16 So we don't know. 17 But it would make it more difficult to 18 build on that side. I don't know where you're -- I 19 agree with Member Brennan, that -- and I know that 20 you're new at this, and perhaps to help the rest of the 21 Board, it would be a good idea to go back to the 22 drawing table, but to solidify your case into where the 23 well is, where the septic is, where all that is, so we 24 can have a justification as to why it can't go anywhere 88
1 else. 2 We understand why you want to build it, 3 but why it can't go anywhere else. I understand the 4 way they're looking at the property, the angle, the 5 curve, the wetland on the other side of Nine Mile is 6 going to be a problem, if they ever decide to widen 7 that road. It's going to -- to come forward, and I can 8 understand that. 9 And I also understand that with the size 10 of this lot, less is better, and that's what the belief 11 of this Board is. So perhaps tonight what you might 12 want to do -- and this is a suggestion -- and where the 13 Board Members are going, I think this would help you -- 14 is to go back to the drawing table and take another 15 look at it; if you're comfortable with doing that, and 16 just do a little longer homework assignment; that's to 17 tell you why this can't go anywhere else, okay? 18 They're not saying they don't want you 19 to build it, they're just saying you need to prove why 20 it can only go there. 21 MRS. LETOURNEAU: Well, do you have the 22 drawing of the existing house as it stands? 23 MEMBER BRENNAN: We have this and we 24 have this. 89
1 If you'd like to make a note, I would 2 like you to take this drawing, and at a bare minimum, 3 sketch on here where the swamp is, where the well is, 4 where the septic is, and where the pool is. 5 MRS. LETOURNEAU: But if you look at 6 this and the -- 7 MEMBER GRONACHAN: You can take that 8 with you. 9 Sorry. 10 MEMBER CANUP: Madam Chair? 11 MEMBER GRONACHAN: Member Canup? 12 MEMBER CANUP: I would make a Motion 13 that we table this case until the next meeting. 14 MEMBER GRONACHAN: Okay. 15 MEMBER CANUP: Give these people an 16 opportunity to be more precise in their drawings, and 17 give each Board Member an opportunity to go look at 18 this, physically look at this piece of property. 19 MR. LETOURNEAU: It would be commented 20 that this building has been sitting around for -- 21 MRS. LETOURNEAU: I guess we don't 22 understand, because if you look -- we didn't think this 23 would be this complicated, because if you look at the 24 structure, the way the house stands, when you look out 90
1 the front, the whole front of the house is living room. 2 How do you add a garage to block the living room? I 3 mean, it's just -- 4 MEMBER GRONACHAN: You know what, that's 5 why think that you just need to go back and just -- and 6 go back and add to what's already on the property. 7 They're not asking you to redraw the plans. Again, and 8 I'm trying to help you -- 9 MR. LETOURNEAU: We can't do that by 10 explaining it here? I mean -- 11 MEMBER GRONACHAN: No. 12 MEMBER BAUER: Huh-uh, no. 13 MEMBER GRONACHAN: No. It needs to be on 14 the plans, so we can go back out and look, even if it's 15 necessary to walk the property, so we can get a visual. 16 Because again, keep in mind a couple of things. Less 17 is better, okay. The fewer variances that you need, 18 the better off it is, okay? 19 I understand that you have what you want 20 to do with this home of yours set in your head, and 21 that's what you're looking at. We're looking at the 22 entire picture, the property, the impact, that's what 23 we're looking at, okay? 24 MR. LETOURNEAU: Okay. 91
1 MEMBER GRONACHAN: So what we're asking 2 you to do is document what's out -- what else is on the 3 property. The pool wasn't noted. The well wasn't 4 noted, okay. And we don't want just an "X" saying this 5 is where it is. How many feet from the house, okay? 6 That would help give us some guidance. And I'm sure, 7 if you have any further questions, Mr. Saven could -- 8 oh, he's there. I thought he left. 9 He could help you -- he could probably 10 assist you, if you have any additional questions. 11 MRS. LETOURNEAU: So is the next meeting 12 not for another month? 13 MEMBER GRONACHAN: That's correct. 14 MRS. LETOURNEAU: Okay. 15 MEMBER GRONACHAN: Okay. 16 All those in favor of tabling case 17 number, 04-040 say aye? 18 BOARD MEMBERS: Aye. 19 MEMBER GRONACHAN: And Denise, would you 20 just note that we'll bring this back as the first case 21 of the evening, okay? 22 We have a date for next month. 23 MRS. LETOURNEAU: Thank you. 24 MEMBER GRONACHAN: We'll see you then. 92
1 Okay. 2 Our next case we'll call 04-041, filed 3 by John Anderson for a residence at 1361 East Lake. 4 Mr. Anderson is requesting four variances for the 5 construction of a new home and a detached garage 6 located at 1361 East Lake Drive. 7 Mr. Anderson? 8 You're Mr. & Mrs. Anderson? 9 MRS. ANDERSON: Yes. 10 MEMBER GRONACHAN: Would you please raise 11 your right hand and be sworn in by our secretary. 12 MEMBER BAUER: Do you solemnly swear or 13 affirm to tell the truth regarding case 04-041? 14 MR. ANDERSON: I do. 15 MRS. ANDERSON: I do. 16 MEMBER GRONACHAN: Go ahead. 17 MRS. ANDERSON: Good evening. 18 Thank you for hearing our case. 19 My husband and I bought a fixer-upper on 20 East Lake Drive, and it's about 700 square feet. 21 There's a few things that we need to do to really make 22 it liveable. We are proposing to take three feet off 23 the side of the house to enable us to have off-street 24 parking. 93
1 We did look into having the house lifted 2 up and moved back, several scenarios. We're looking at 3 $35,000-plus. Those were some of the quotes. So what 4 we're looking at now is to take the three feet off the 5 side of the house, which will reduce this down to about 6 600 square feet of living, actually, which that's a 7 little tight. 8 So we're looking to be able to add a 9 little more square footage to an addition. We've 10 talked to our neighbors on both sides. This area -- 11 there's a few people not back in town. They have their 12 summer homes. But the two neighbors on both sides of 13 us directly are very much in favor of us approving the 14 property as much as possible, to enhance their own 15 property values. 16 Any questions that you might have, my 17 husband and I would like to answer them for you. 18 MEMBER GRONACHAN: Okay. 19 Anything further? 20 MR. ANDERSON: Nothing further. 21 MEMBER GRONACHAN: Is there anyone in 22 the audience that wishes to make comments in regards to 23 this case? 24 Seeing none, there were 39 notices sent; 94
1 no approvals; no objections; and five letters were 2 returned, undeliverable. 3 Building Department? 4 MR. SAVEN: Just to point out that 5 there's -- this existing house that was on the 6 property, was in dire need of repair. The fact that 7 there was no proof that there would be a need for a 8 foundation system that was adequate enough for this 9 particular building, number one. 10 Number two, any repairs that were done 11 to this building, would only cause a great deal of 12 difficulty somewhere down the road. For example, just 13 by replacing windows, which Mr. Anderson and I started 14 the conversation in regards to this, and we can also 15 get involved in whether or not we still had a 16 foundation system adequate enough. 17 Whatever they do to this house -- they 18 don't want to put money into something that was 19 difficult to deal with -- so it was suggested based 20 upon the fact that -- based upon the fact that there 21 was no off-street parking, number one; and number two, 22 is to try to come up with something that was a little 23 bit more palpable, as far as setbacks, and that's why 24 he's here before you today. 95
1 MEMBER GRONACHAN: Okay. 2 Thank you. 3 Board Members? 4 Member Canup? 5 MEMBER CANUP: Unfortunately, you've got 6 a 30 foot slot. It's very unfortunate that you have 7 three feet on side variances, I guess on the backside 8 there? I don't know what the answer is, but I know 9 three feet is not an answer. 10 How close is your neighbor to the lot 11 line on the three foot side? 12 MR. ANDERSON: I think they're about 13 nine foot off the lot line. 14 MEMBER CANUP So you'd have 12 feet 15 between you. 16 MR. ANDERSON: Right. 17 MEMBER CANUP: Has the house next door 18 to you been rebuilt, refurbished or is it -- 19 MR. ANDERSON: The one on the southside? 20 MEMBER CANUP: Right. The one on the 21 three foot side, the right side? 22 MR. ANDERSON: I think they've done a 23 little bit of work. They just recently bought it last 24 October. 96
1 MEMBER CANUP: I guess the question is, 2 are they going to be in here looking for a three foot 3 sideyard. 4 MEMBER GRAY: First come first serve, 5 isn't it? 6 MEMBER CANUP: Well, you know what, I 7 can't tell somebody next door that's got 30 foot lot 8 that he can't build on it. 9 MEMBER GRONACHAN: Right. 10 MEMBER CANUP: Are we going to establish 11 a precedent here? 12 MEMBER GRAY: We usually do in this 13 area. 14 MEMBER GRONACHAN: Member Brennan? 15 MEMBER BRENNAN: Well, for brand-new 16 construction, I would have liked to have seen a little 17 bit more than a lot plan like this, with a lot of other 18 issues. But what struck me right off the bat, was the 19 three foot setback, and a 34 percent lot coverage. 20 This is an area of houses and lots that 21 are very, very small. I'm not too thrilled with 22 building that up -- a variance request on that kind of 23 lot coverage on new construction. So I've got a couple 24 different problems with this, the way it's printed. 97
1 MEMBER GRONACHAN: Member Gray? 2 MEMBER GRAY: I've got a problem with 3 that because basically they're removing the existing 4 house and they're talking new construction, and I don't 5 have as much a problem with the driveway on the 6 northside of the house. I've got a real problem with 7 trying to fit cars around the curve into a two-car 8 garage in ten feet of space. I don't know how 9 specifically you're going to do it. 10 I just -- I just don't see how it works 11 at all. I'm not saying that it can't be done. I just 12 don't see how you can do it. 13 MEMBER GRONACHAN: Member Canup? 14 MEMBER CANUP: How many square feet is 15 the structure of the home going to be when you're done? 16 MR. ANDERSON: When we're done, probably 17 about 1600. 18 MEMBER CANUP: That includes up and 19 down? 20 MR. ANDERSON: Yes. 21 MEMBER CANUP: You know, we had a case 22 in here last meeting where, the same thing we had a 23 small lot, and people were trying to, basically over 24 build for the lot size. 98
1 A 1600 square foot house is not a 2 gigantic house. This is a very difficult situation 3 here. 4 MR. ANDERSON: It's a 30 foot lot. 5 MEMBER CANUP: How are you going to get 6 the garage in ten feet? 7 MR. ANDERSON: Well, I don't necessarily 8 have to use the garage for cars. Mainly, it's just for 9 like storage. I thought I would present it at the same 10 time, you know, one permit for everything. 11 MEMBER CANUP: So you're parking for 12 that property would be in that ten feet? 13 MR. ANDERSON: Yes. 14 MEMBER BRENNAN: Or along the side of 15 the house. 16 MR. ANDERSON: Correct. 17 MRS. ANDERSON: Because right now, it's 18 so close to the road, we have to come up with an 19 alternative to get the cars off the road. I mean, it's 20 -- 21 MEMBER GRONACHAN: Member Gray? 22 MEMBER GRAY: I have to say, I 23 compliment you for getting the setback from 12 feet to 24 30 feet, because that's going to -- could solve some of 99
1 your off-street parking right there in the front, as 2 much as you have a short lot. I just have a problem 3 with the overall coverages, as well. 4 MEMBER BRENNAN: Madam Chair? 5 MEMBER GRONACHAN: Member Brennan? 6 MEMBER BRENNAN: As we get more 7 information by asking questions, I think from a 8 priority standpoint, getting cars off of East Lake 9 Drive is critical, and I would give that a high 10 priority. So the fact that they've got a long drive, 11 that does get cars off the main street and traffic. 12 Number two, my earlier comment that the 13 lot coverage is rather extensive, and the fact I now 14 find out -- see how we can get -- we can start making 15 decisions without hearing all the testimony, because we 16 don't have the information in front of us. 17 MRS. ANDERSON: Right. 18 I understand. 19 MEMBER BRENNAN: A 1600 square foot 20 house is -- we're talking about a two-story, and this 21 is a relatively narrow house on a real narrow lot. 22 How else would you do it? 23 MEMBER GRONACHAN: Member Gray? 24 MEMBER GRAY: Have you buying the lake 100
1 front across the street? 2 MR. ANDERSON: We own that, yes. 3 MEMBER GRAY: You own it? 4 MR. ANDERSON: Yes. 5 MRS. ANDERSON: Yes. 6 MEMBER GRAY: Okay. So you've got 30 7 feet on the eastsdie of the road; 30 feet on the 8 westside of the road. 9 MR. ANDERSON: Each one is 40 feet, 30 10 by 40 feet. 11 MEMBER GRAY: So if you run out of 12 parking, they could go across the street where there's 13 an existing parking area now, correct? 14 MRS. ANDERSON: A small area, yes. 15 MEMBER GRONACHAN: I think that's 16 information we also need to have, too. 17 MRS. ANDERSON: Uh-huh. 18 MR. ANDERSON: In the wintertime, it 19 gets a little bit touch. I think it was like four feet 20 of snow on that side of the lake. 21 MEMBER GRONACHAN: I have a problem with 22 supporting three feet on the side. I really do. I can 23 appreciate the Petitioners' difficulty with this lot 24 size, but in the past this Board has been very 101
1 consistent. I feel like a broken record about less is 2 better. 3 I am not an architect, but I don't know 4 that the garage, given that there's parking alongside 5 -- if it's not going to be used for a garage for the 6 cars, and it's going to be used for storage; and 7 perhaps there's a better way of doing this and pushing 8 that house back, either for more property in the front, 9 and getting parking in the -- and pushing that house 10 back and getting it off that property line for three 11 feet. 12 I have a real problem in separating that 13 house. 14 MRS. ANDERSON: The estimates for 15 lifting the house and moving it back, was just not in 16 the budget. 17 MEMBER GRONACHAN: So you're moving the 18 existing foundation? 19 MRS. ANDERSON: Well, the existing front 20 wall, we would cut three foot off the side of the 21 house, to enable us to put cars on the side of the 22 house. The alternative would have been to pick the 23 house up and push it back, which the estimates coming 24 in at $35,000-plus, and it just -- the numbers don't 102
1 work. 2 MEMBER CANUP: How much square footage 3 is the existing home? 4 MR. ANDERSON: 700, without taking the 5 three feet off, creating those parking spaces? 6 MEMBER CANUP: Would you be better off 7 just to tear the house down and start over on this lot? 8 That may be what's going to have to be done. 9 MEMBER GRAY: Isn't that what they were 10 going to do? 11 MEMBER GRONACHAN: It says removing the 12 original foundation. 13 MR. ANDERSON: The first 18 feet, we're 14 not going to do anything to. We're going to start new 15 construction 30 foot setback, with two stories and 16 replacing the existing. 17 MEMBER GRAY: You're only going to take 18 three feet from the northside, but you're going to 19 leave the front foundation wall at 12 feet? 20 MR. ANDERSON: Yes. 21 MEMBER GRAY: That's not all what I 22 understood from this proposal. 23 MEMBER CANUP: I think probably what we 24 need to do here is one of two things. Vote on it, and 103
1 I think it'll get turned down. So I think we need to 2 give these people an opportunity to go back and come 3 back with something better than what's here. Three 4 feet just isn't going to work. 5 I don't know what the answer is, but I 6 guess you're going to have to -- 7 MR. ANDERSON: I don't 'know either. 8 It's an opportunity for me to improve the house. I 9 can't lift it up. I can't shoot it back. I can't put 10 ten feet on each side and have a ten foot wide house. 11 So -- 12 MEMBER GRONACHAN: At this point, it's 13 going to be your option. We can either vote on it 14 tonight -- and I think you're getting the feel of where 15 the Board is; or would you like us to table it until 16 next month, and you can come back with some other 17 ideas? 18 MR. ANDERSON: I'm not sure what else I 19 can come back with. 20 Any suggestions? 21 MEMBER GRONACHAN: Well, that's not 22 really where we're at tonight. 23 MR. ANDERSON: Okay. 24 MEMBER GRONACHAN: I mean -- no, I'm 104
1 not -- I can't give you a suggestion on how to build 2 your house. I mean, that's why they have the experts 3 out there, really. I would take a look at that three 4 foot property line. It's a major concern of the Board. 5 I'll be honest with you, the way you're presenting it 6 this evening and what I read, and from the sound of the 7 other Board Members, they had the same impression, I 8 thought this house was being completely tore down and 9 that it was going to be -- 10 MR. ANDERSON: Oh, no. 11 MEMBER GRONACHAN: This is not brand-new 12 construction. 13 MRS. ANDERSON: Just the back portion 14 would be. 15 MR. ANDERSON: I'm not sure why it's 16 worded that way. 17 MEMBER GRONACHAN: Even our -- the case 18 reads as construction of a new home, and so that's -- 19 MRS. ANDERSON: That's not accurate. 20 It's construction of an additional. It would not be a 21 new home. 22 MEMBER GRONACHAN: So I -- my suggestion 23 to you -- you asked me if I had an idea -- I would go 24 back to the drawing board, and not give us the 105
1 impression that this is a brand-new home. This is not 2 new construction. And if I might, I would suggest 3 giving this a little better drawing of what you're' 4 dealing with. 5 MR. ANDERSON: Okay. 6 MEMBER GRONACHAN: Because this is not 7 clear. And with a three foot sideyard setback up in 8 that neighborhood, it's very difficult to support. 9 MR. SAVEN: And I do apologize to the 10 Board because I was -- I'm not going to say I was 11 misinformed, but I was under the wrong impression 12 because it was our assumption that were going to get a 13 30 foot garage for parking -- 14 MEMBER GRONACHAN: Yeah. 15 MR. SAVEN: And that's why this was not 16 considered as part of the request for the variance to 17 minimize the request, and push things back. And that's 18 what I thought this was about, because the foundation 19 system, the existing foundation system whether it was 20 adequate to support this particular issue was one of 21 the things of concern. 22 So that's why I was under the impression 23 this was coming down. So I think that what we may need 24 to do is go through a clarification. 106
1 MR. ANDERSON: Okay. 2 Fair enough. 3 MEMBER GRONACHAN: So you would like to 4 table for -- 5 MR. ANDERSON: Yes. 6 MEMBER GRONACHAN: -- next meeting. 7 Okay. 8 Board Members, we're going to table case 9 number, 04-042 -- I'm sorry. Wrong case number. We're 10 going to table, 04-041. 11 All those in favor, say aye? 12 BOARD MEMBERS: Aye. 13 MEMBER GRONACHAN: Your case will be 14 tabled until next month. 15 MR. ANDERSON: Thank you. 16 MRS. ANDERSON: Thank you. 17 MEMBER GRONACHAN: Okay. Let's go with 18 case number, 04-042, Mr. Brett Johnson for a residence 19 at 24117 Wintergreen Circle. 20 Mr. Johnson is requesting a four foot 21 rearyard setback variance, with the construction of a 22 covered porch on an existing deck. 23 Good evening. 24 MR. JOHNSON: Good evening. 107
1 MEMBER GRONACHAN: You are Mr. Johnson? 2 MR. JOHNSON: Yes, I am. 3 MEMBER GRONACHAN: Would you please 4 raise your right hand and be sworn in by our secretary. 5 MEMBER BAUER: Do you solemnly swear or 6 affirm to tell the truth regarding case 04-042? 7 MR. JOHNSON: Yes, I do. 8 MEMBER BAUER: Thank you. 9 MEMBER GRONACHAN: You may proceed. 10 MR. JOHNSON: Thank you. 11 I'd like to thank the Board for its time 12 this evening. My name is Brett Johnson. I live at 13 24117 Wintergreen Circle in the Wintergreen Park 14 Subdivision. In front of you, you should have a plan 15 to screen in my existing deck. I have a letter of 16 approval from my subdivision president. 17 I am here requesting a four foot 18 variance in order to construct the project. My 19 hardship is fairly simple. I'm in a new development 20 without any trees. The deck faces west. During the 21 mid-day to late evening, it is very uncomfortable for 22 my family to use the deck. 23 Also, I would like to screen it in, so 24 we could use the deck in the evening to protect the 108
1 family from mosquitos. 2 I have spoken with my neighbors that 3 border my property. They've expressed their approval 4 of the project. The design is consistent with my 5 neighbors. Actually, I borrowed the design from the 6 neighbor that's three-doors down. 7 With that, I'll -- you can ask me any 8 questions. 9 MEMBER GRONACHAN: Thank you. 10 Is there anyone in the audience that 11 wishes to make comment in this case? 12 Seeing none, there were 30 notices sent; 13 the Homeowner's Association sends their approval, along 14 with Mr. Rusty Carr, who's waiting for the pizza and 15 beer at your house. 16 MR. JOHNSON: Rusty's my next door 17 neighbor. 18 MEMBER GRONACHAN: I guess he's in 19 favor. 20 Building Department? 21 MR. SAVEN: No comment. 22 MEMBER GRONACHAN: Board Members? 23 Member Brennan? 24 MEMBER BRENNAN: We're not going any 109
1 farther into the easement. I'm talking about the 2 rearyard setback, than the deck already presents. 3 We've had similar cases and we've had 4 similar results. 5 I would support the Petitioner's 6 request. 7 MEMBER GRONACHAN: Is there a Motion? 8 MEMBER BRENNAN: I will make a Motion. 9 04-042 filed by Brett Johnson, I would 10 move that the Petitioner's request be granted. His 11 request is minimal. It's within the spirit of the 12 Ordinance. 13 MEMBER BAUER: Second. 14 MEMBER GRONACHAN: It's been moved and 15 seconded. 16 Is there any further discussion on the 17 Motion? 18 Seeing none, Denise, would you please 19 call the roll. 20 DENISE ANDERSON: Member Brennan? 21 MEMBER BRENNAN: Yes. 22 DENISE ANDERSON: Member Bauer? 23 MEMBER BAUER: Yes. 24 DENISE ANDERSON: Member Canup? 110
1 MEMBER CANUP: Yes. 2 DENISE ANDERSON: Member Gray? 3 MEMBER GRAY: Yep. 4 DENISE ANDERSON: Member Gronachan? 5 MEMBER GRONACHAN: Yes. 6 DENISE ANDERSON: Member Sanghvi? 7 MEMBER SANGHVI: Yes. 8 DENISE ANDERSON: Motion passes, six to 9 zero. 10 MR. JOHNSON: Thank you. 11 MEMBER GRONACHAN: Your variance has 12 been granted, and we'll be waiting to hear about that 13 party. 14 Thank you. 15 16 17 18 MEMBER GRONACHAN: Okay. 19 Our final case for this evening, 04-043, 20 filed by John Florian for Husky Injection Molding 21 Systems, Inc. 22 Mr. Florian is requesting a one sign 23 variance for a height increase of four feet, 11 inches 24 on the current sign, which is located at that stated 111
1 address. 2 Good evening. 3 MR. FLORIAN: Good evening. 4 MEMBER GRONACHAN: Are you Mr. Florian? 5 MR. FLORIAN: Yes, I am. 6 MEMBER GRONACHAN: Please raise your 7 right hand and be sworn in by our secretary. 8 MEMBER BAUER: Do you solemnly swear or 9 affirm to tell the truth regarding case, 04-043? 10 MR. FLORIAN: I do. 11 MEMBER BAUER: Thank you. 12 MEMBER GRONACHAN: Proceed. 13 MR. FLORIAN: I'm a project manager for 14 Husky Injection Molding System. Our hardship is 15 visibility of the sign which marks the front entrance 16 to our property on West 12 Mile Road. I've got some 17 slides here to try and help. 18 West 12 Mile Road was widened to four 19 lanes over the last year and a half, and the result has 20 been a change in the grade on the south shoulder of 21 West 12 Mile road, and the change in grade obscures our 22 sign. 23 We believe it presents a safety hazard, 24 because we have a lot of visitors to the facility, and 112
1 they cannot see the sign in time to slow down and stop 2 safely and make a left-hand turn. 3 If you're approaching from 374 feet, 4 which is a safe distance to see that sign and make the 5 turn, you cannot see the sign properly. And it's 6 further exacerbated by the fact that we have four lanes 7 going down to two lanes right in front of our property. 8 We have traffic going rather quickly in both 9 directions. And even the turn lane, goes down into a 10 pie shape. 11 People who pass the driveway accidently, 12 end up going over to Taft Road, and there's a bit of a 13 valley there behind the railway track, and they try and 14 do a U-turn; and that presents another safety hazard. 15 So the issue here is the grade, and this 16 vicinity is several feet. It's not a matter of a few 17 inches. It's several feet too high to see safely from 18 westbound traffic. 19 So this is the existing sign that we 20 have there now, and we propose to raise it four feet, 21 11 inches, so that it can be seen properly. This is 22 the mock-up. This is a picture I took today of our 23 mock-up at the correct distance. 24 And our proposal would be to move the 113
1 sign a little bit to the west, about the 13 -- rather 2 to the east, 13 feet, raise it up and do some 3 substantial landscaping with boulders and plantings to 4 try and ease the change of grade into what the roads 5 department has done. 6 I don't know if there are any questions. 7 MEMBER GRONACHAN: Okay. 8 We'll let you know. 9 Is there anyone in the audience that 10 wishes to make comment in regards to this case? 11 Seeing none, there were 13 notices 12 mailed; one approval from Tom Steffler at 27110 Taft. 13 "Husky is a good neighbor and Novi business. 14 Everything they have done has been quality and well- 15 maintained. I'm confident this sign will also be." 16 Building Department? 17 MR. SAVEN: Just to put out when the 18 variance was looked at when we first got int, we had no 19 idea what 12 Mile was going to look like. We played 20 around with this for a little bit, and we thought this 21 would probably be the best situation out there. And 22 this is why this gentleman's here now, because we're 23 getting a finalization of what things are, as it exists 24 out there now. 114
1 So I can see what he was presenting is 2 indeed difficult for safety purposes. 3 MEMBER GRONACHAN: Okay. 4 Thank you. 5 Board Members? 6 Member Canup? 7 MEMBER CANUP: Did I understand you were 8 going to move the sign to the west, the whole sign is 9 going to be moved? 10 MR. FLORIAN: To the east. 11 MEMBER CANUP: To the east. Is it going 12 to be changed in elevations? 13 MR. FLORIAN: It will be raised four 14 feet 11 inches, so that it can be seen properly from 15 the east. 16 MEMBER CANUP: Will the sign be four 17 feet 11 inches taller, or will it be mounted on top of 18 a four foot 11 inch berm? 19 MR. FLORIAN: It's going to be mounted 20 on a four foot, 11 inch berm. 21 MEMBER CANUP: That's what I was trying 22 to say. 23 MR. FLORIAN: Yes, yes. 24 MEMBER GRONACHAN: Member Brennan? 115
1 MEMBER BRENNAN: I agree with the 2 Petitioner's request. If you're approaching from the 3 east heading west, you don't see that other sign. I 4 think it fixes a traffic problem. 5 There's heads nodding. I'll make a 6 Motion with respect to case, 04-043, that the 7 Petitioner's request be granted, due to topography and 8 safety. 9 MEMBER BAUER: Second. 10 MEMBER GRONACHAN: It's been moved and 11 seconded. 12 Is there any further discussion on the 13 Motion? 14 Seeing none, Denise, would you please 15 call the roll. 16 DENISE ANDERSON: Member Brennan? 17 MEMBER BRENNAN: Yes. 18 DENISE ANDERSON: Member Bauer? 19 MEMBER BAUER: Yes. 20 DENISE ANDERSON: Member Canup? 21 MEMBER CANUP: Yes. 22 DENISE ANDERSON: Member Gray? 23 MEMBER GRAY: Yes. 24 DENISE ANDERSON: Member Gronachan? 116
1 MEMBER GRONACHAN: Yes. 2 DENISE ANDERSON: Member Sanghvi? 3 MEMBER SANGHVI: Yes. 4 DENISE ANDERSON: Motion passes, six to 5 zero. 6 MR. FLORIAN: Thank you very much. 7 MEMBER GRONACHAN: Your variance has 8 been granted. Please see the Building Department. 9 MR. FLORIAN: Thank you. 10 MEMBER BRENNAN: Madam Chair? 11 MEMBER GRONACHAN: Yes, Member Brennan? 12 MEMBER BRENNAN: I believe that there is 13 nobody else left in the audience, and we have two cases 14 that we haven't dealt with. I would ask the Building 15 Department is there is any messages received regarding 16 case 04-033 and 034? 17 DENISE ANDERSON: No. I received no 18 communication. 19 MEMBER BRENNAN: Okay. It's 20 historically been the Board's position that when the 21 Petitioner does not appear, does not give us any reason 22 for not being here, that the cases be denied and they 23 be resubmitted. 24 BOARD MEMBERS: Okay. 117
1 MEMBER BRENNAN: That would be my 2 recommendation. 3 Tom's got something to say. 4 MEMBER GRONACHAN: Any further 5 discussion? 6 Mr. Schultz? 7 MR. SCHULTZ: Yes. To be honest, we 8 prefer a table, just you know, there could be any 9 number of reasons. If it's a denial with no new fee, 10 that'll be fine. But rather -- to avoid their 11 argument. Tabling strikes us better. 12 MEMBER GRONACHAN: Okay. 13 Member Fischer, do you have anything to 14 offer? 15 MEMBER GRONACHAN: Okay. 16 Do we have head shaking on a table, as 17 opposed to a denial or -- 18 All those in favor of tabling cases 04- 19 033 and 04-034 say aye? 20 BOARD MEMBERS: Aye. 21 MEMBER GRONACHAN: All opposed? 22 None? 23 MEMBER BRENNAN: Me. 24 MEMBER GRONACHAN: All opposed, one, 118
1 Member Brennan. 2 Therefore, these two cases will be 3 tabled until the June, and owner will be sent 4 notification. 5 MEMBER FISCHER: You guys got something 6 else? 7 MR. FLORIAN: No, just didn't want to be 8 rude. 9 MEMBER GRONACHAN: Okay. 10 Is there any further discussion -- I 11 guess we need to discuss case, 04-005. 12 MEMBER BRENNAN: Madam Chair? 13 MEMBER GRONACHAN: Member Brennan? 14 MEMBER BRENNAN: Give the information 15 that we've been presented, I see no reason why we 16 cannot grant a six-month extension for this Petitioner. 17 MEMBER BAUER: Me. 18 MEMBER GRONACHAN: Okay. 19 It's been moved and approved. 20 Any further discussion in regards to the 21 case of 04-005, filed by Jill Porter. She is 22 requesting a six-month extension. 23 Seeing none, Denise -- do we need to 24 call roll on this or all those in favor says aye, is 119
1 okay? 2 MR. SCHULTZ: That's fine. 3 MEMBER GRONACHAN: Okay. 4 All in favor say aye? 5 BOARD MEMBERS: Aye. 6 MEMBER GRONACHAN: All opposed, none. 7 Extension granted. 8 Mr. Saven? 9 Mr. Saven has something else to add this 10 evening, gentlemen. 11 Yes. 12 MR. SAVEN: I would just like the make 13 the Board aware that the tabling of the cases -- we've 14 already had, I think 15 cases already for next month. 15 MEMBER GRONACHAN: Can they go into July? 16 MR. SAVEN: These cases that are tabled 17 today? 18 MEMBER GRONACHAN: No. The one that we 19 tabled earlier, because they weren't here. But the 20 cases that weren't here, I think they should be tabled 21 to July, unless Board Members have something else or 22 we're going to have 19 cases. 23 MR. SAVEN: Well, we'll decide this in a 24 little bit, because I know I do have two cases that are 120
1 City cases, that deal with right of ways, Ten Mile -- 2 MEMBER BAUER: September. 3 MEMBER GRONACHAN: November 15th. 4 MR. SAVEN: -- they may not go, so that 5 will probably take care of two cases. But this Board 6 should be aware -- this is 17 cases tonight. It was a 7 pretty heavy load, okay. 8 MEMBER GRONACHAN: I think it went well. 9 MEMBER BRENNAN: I'd like to point out 10 that the gas station cases are probably 3O seconds. 11 MR. SAVEN: They're not -- I don't think 12 they're an increase in size. I think they're just -- 13 MEMBER SANGHVI: I think it's change the 14 name. 15 MEMBER CANUP: Do we have anything of a 16 major case coming up? 17 MR. SAVEN: It's really hard for me to 18 say anything right now, without possibly looking at 19 what the Planning Commission may be approving tomorrow 20 -- 21 MR. SCHULTZ: Next week. 22 MR. SAVEN: -- next week. So it'll 23 either -- I don't know what they have on the agenda, 24 but I don't think it's going to be anything major. I 121
1 can let you know or give you guys a call. 2 MEMBER CANUP: I guess the reason for 3 asking that is, you know, the suggestion would be that 4 if we had something that's very major where you're 5 going to get a large audience participating that's 6 going to be here for four hours on one case, maybe we 7 should look at having a special meeting to deal with 8 that particular case, if we have something that is a 9 major thing like Hooters, you know. 10 MEMBER GRONACHAN: You had to say 11 Hooters. 12 MR. SAVEN: No Hooters, no Hooters. 13 MEMBER GRONACHAN: Member Fischer? 14 MEMBER FISCHER: I agree about the 15 special meeting, but at the same time I agree with what 16 you said earlier that if we do have a large case, the 17 people that did not show up today, I feel should be 18 pushed out into July, because of the fact that they're 19 lucky we didn't deny it right off the bat, like Member 20 Brennan wanted to. 21 So that's my personal belief. 22 MEMBER GRONACHAN: Well, we do have a 23 15-case rule, and I can appreciate Member Canup kind 24 heart, but on the other hand, we could be setting a 122
1 pattern here. 2 MR. SAVEN: Like I said, we're getting 3 into the building season now. 4 MEMBER GRONACHAN: Right. It's getting 5 busy. 6 MR. SAVEN: It's getting very active out 7 there, and everybody's getting this desire -- 8 especially on the lots that have these rearyard 9 setbacks. The decks don't bother me as much, as 10 somebody who's dealing with smaller lots, like the 11 Andersons here, for this particular lot; or the one on 12 Nine Mile, which needed a little more TLC, which I 13 could have probably gave a little more information to 14 you, that based on the GIS and probably provided some 15 more information on the wetlands; and how close that 16 building is. 17 For some reason, I didn't do this, and I 18 apologize for that. The bottom line is, if it starts 19 getting into commercial activity whereby we're looking 20 at some other issues, then I'll be cautious about that 21 and discuss it. 22 MEMBER BRENNAN: Don, this isn't meant 23 to supersede our police department issue? 24 MR. SAVEN: No, no. That is for 123
1 everyone right now, for identification purposes -- if 2 you go on people's property, I want you to be able to 3 identify that you're here. And that is your 4 authoritative identification. 5 If you have one -- I'm doing this -- I'm 6 not issuing any more with pictures and whatever. 7 MEMBER GRONACHAN: Okay. 8 Member Gray? 9 MEMBER GRAY: One more issue, I haven't 10 seen Planning Commission Minutes in awhile. Are we 11 still getting them? 12 MEMBER GRONACHAN: Yes, we're getting 13 them. 14 MEMBER GRAY: The full Minutes? 15 I haven't seen -- I've seen sporadic 16 where it's case by case, but I haven't seen full 17 Minutes, and I enjoy reading those. It gives me a lot 18 of information. 19 MEMBER GRONACHAN: Okay. 20 MR. SAVEN: And in closing, this is 21 totally remarkable, in terms of time here. This is 22 fantastic. 23 You guys do your homework and you do a 24 great job. 124
1 BOARD MEMBERS: Thank you. 2 MEMBER GRONACHAN: I entertain a Motion 3 to adjourn this meeting until next month. 4 All in favor? 5 BOARD MEMBERS: Aye. 6 MEMBER GRONACHAN: Have a good week. 7 (The meeting was adjourned 8 at 9:45 p.m.) 9 - - - - - 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 125
1 C__E__R__T__I__F__I__C__A__T__E_ 2 3 I do hereby certify that I have 4 recorded stenographically the proceedings had and testimony 5 taken in the above-entitled matter at the time and place 6 hereinbefore set forth, and that the foregoing is a full, 7 true and correct transcript of proceedings had in the 8 above-entitled matter; and I do further certify that the 9 foregoing transcript, consisting of (126) typewritten 10 pages, is a true and correct transcript of my said 11 stenograph notes. 12 13 14 ________________________________________ 15 Machelle R. Billingslea-Moore, Reporter. 16 17 __________ 18 Date 19 20 21 22 23 24 126
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